Digby replies. Over 1.5 million Florida Democrats voted today, twice as many as have ever voted in a Democratic presidential primary before. Digby's conclusion really applies to all of TAPPED these days: Who do you think you are?

blah.. well then they can all go out and vote when it does have some meaning in the general election. It is meaningless, and they should thank their state dem organization for making it so.

They could have had a say in the nomination but chose to be obstinate in the face of consequences.. and my gosh.. they are suffering those consequences, imagine that.

Theres a system for voting, and as crappy as it is we have a system controlled by 2 parties. The rules particularly the primary rules, are set by them. Everyone is happy with that limitation, until their rules actually affect something.

They wanted to be stubborn, they wanted to fight with the other states over the calendar. Now they get to reap the rewards of their actions. .. and cry that there is actually a price to pay.

The votes count, they always do if for nothing more than a general feeling or a matter of trivia.

The delegates don't count in any meaningful way, there's a difference.

The stupidest thing I just heard was Craig Crawford saying Dems better watch out, with intra party fighting and a Repub Gov. that can deliver votes for McCain FL is trending GOP (set aside their voting patterns for the past 8 years). Now lets look at the number of voters, last I check Dems, had 200,000 less votes cast then Repubs, this is in a primary where the Dems couldn't campaign and didn't spend money or time in state in GOTV. Looks like FL is trending heavy Dem to me.

Ezra,

You really should read Digby on this. You're a bright guy; you're better than the kind of snark you posted here.

"Sigh. I'm tired of the primaries."

Man, you're fucking nuts. We're just getting to the fun part.

The next week is going to decide everything.

I heard that HRC won because of the "early" votes in Florida, she actually LOST among the people who voted TODAY in the Dem primaries.

Has anyone else heard the same thing?

I can honestly say that now I am happy because it looks like if HRC wins nomination I can happily vote for her opponent, McCain.

though Obama remains my no. 1 choice.

McCain is HRC's worst possible opponent. Dems should think about that come Feb. 5

as a national columnist wrote: "John McCain is a bazooka squarely aimed at every single one of HRC's purported "strengths".

btw..
HRC is hanging on for dear life.
Feb 5 can't come early/fast enough for her.

I think if Obama had a couple of weeks, he'd win on Feb 5 and easily.

her sleazy and typically Clintonian shameless attempt to change the rules of the game when it suite her despite agreeing on them beforehand should give all Democrats pause.

Bogey: Not half as much pause as mindless Clinton-haters who'd rather vote for another four years of Bush's disastrous policies than a "sleazy" candidate (which, as we all know, St. McCain would never even consider being).

"heard that HRC won because of the "early" votes in Florida, she actually LOST among the people who voted TODAY in the Dem primaries."

No, he won the people who DECIDED on who to vote for today, and those who decided in the past week, but not in the actual votes cast today. Many more people voted for Clinton at the polling stations today, but had already made that decision a month ago.

It's a good sign for Obama that late deciders are going for him, and that he's got another week for more to do so, but at this point, I'd say Clinton has a 70% chance to win. Her leads are just too big.

Lucky her plane wasn't delayed after this primary. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to thank he campaign workers personally.

Ordinarily I'm a big fan of Digby, but she's treading on Dick Cheney territory there, in the sense that she's equating people mocking the situation that has been created in Michigan and Florida with mocking the voters who are making the best of it.

This is exactly the same logic Bush & Co. have been using for years with the Iraq war: questioning any of the decisions the Great Leaders made meant that you were attacking the troops who were bearing the brunt of those decisions.

I sympathize with the voters who are stuck with what they've been given, but this entire situation is asinine, and it is perfectly appropriate to laugh at it. Both parties seem to be trying to alienate two large swing states in what is bound to be a close election. Didn't they see that this is what would happen?

If voters in Florida and Michigan really want to show their displeasure, they have to do more than show up to vote in the primaries and demand to have their delegates re-instated. They need to turf out the idiots in their state legislatures who produced the situation and register their displeasure with the party bigwigs who dealt with it so badly.

Then, everybody needs to work on a real solution to the problem. I understand why people don't like Iowa and New Hampshire having more than their share of influence, but a lot of the same people were perfectly happy to see their state leapfrog ahead of the rest and get more influence than the next guy by doing so.

This situation can't be allowed to happen again, but I think it's a bad idea to try to leverage it in the meantime to get more votes for your favoured candidate. That is guaranteed to bite you in the behind.

Anyone who could vote either Obama or McCain just isn't paying enough attention.

Stupid Republicans.

I hope Democrats aren't shaking in their boots at the thought of facing off against John McCain. The GOP would do much better to nominate Romney. Joe Scarborough summed up McCain's platform thusly: less jobs, more wars. That may not be all that appealing to voters in November.

McCain is Bob Dole redux. He has exceedingly little going for him. The Vietnam shit is well past its sell-by date; the majority of voters are too young to even remember it. And what else does he have? His 'straight talk'? I think even the media is beginning to be unable to say that with a straight face.

So what else does he offer? He's as entrenched in D.C. as you can possibly get (Obama especially would be a nice contrast here). He's a fervent supporter of a war that people hate (and which also, my 'fiscally conservative' friends, is probably the biggest waste of money in all of human history.

He is on record as saying both that he doesn't know much about economics and that he wouldn't mind staying in Iraq for the NEXT HUNDRED YEARS. Those statements should make a handy little campaign commercial. Vote for McCain: He won't do anything to improve your economic situation, but he will pursue idiotic and disastrous wars!

Plus, as an added bonus, he's put himself in a position where he can't even use what is perhaps the only issue favoring the GOP this year, i.e. immigration.

So if anybody is bumming tonight because they wanted Romney as an opponent instead of McCain, don't worry. McCain is exactly the kind of candidate the Democratic nominee wants to run against.

Here are some results from the "fake primary":

* More Democrats voted today than in the first four caucus/primary states combined.

* Democratic turnout in this campaign-free primary set a new state record, nearly matching that of the hotly contested GOP primary.

* The winner of the Democratic primary gained over 150,000 more votes than the winner of the GOP primary.

Too bad these are all "fake" results. It might have been quite a night for our side, had they been real.

Sour grapes make bitter whine.

Obama won those who decided in the last three days by one percentage point.

Florida delegates will be seated at the convention.

Just more liberal elitism. And you wonder why the mainstream rank and file democrats ignore bloggers.

Remember the days when the blogosphere used to be better than the press corp?

If you're so tired of the primaries, stop writing about them. You and Yglesias sound just like Dana Milbank. No respect for the hundreds of thousands of people who came out and voted in a primary that may -- or may not -- have been meaningless for reasons beyond their control. Disgusting.

maddog, first of all I'm not a Clinton-hater. Matter of fact, when they tried impeachment over a blowjob, I got very angry and it was the beginning of my break with the Republican Party.

I think I'd actually prefer Hilary to Slick Willy.

Problem is, we already had Slick Willy, I don't believe in "dynasties", I have a visceral dislike for her and have always had it, (now it's been amplified) and I've been a big fan of McCain for a long time.

Ergo- no vote for Hilary.

(even if McCain worries me with his rambling about more wars, etc)

Sorry.

If you want me to vote Dem, nominate Obama.

hey Phil, by "rank and file democrat" do you mean those who barely got their GED's? (one of HRC core support groups?)

anyways - exit polls say of those who decided in the last three days - HRC and Obama split the vote at 35% each.

that's your best tracking poll going. The HRC votes/,margin largely comes from people who voted/decide early.

like I said, she can't fucking wait for Feb 5 to get here fast enough because the Empress truly has no clothes (oh man... that visual is truly disgusting)

Ezra:

You're in no position to dismiss 1.5 million Democratic votes.

Shame on you.

Giuliani's withdrawal is good news for Giuliani.

So do all Obama supporters think their should be an educational requirement for citizenship or just the one in the comments section? You should advocate for a poll tax as well since the rich are solidly for Obama.

I don't always support one person/one vote either but I only advocate disenfranchising elitist douche baggy blog commneters.

I would advocate disenfranchising people who vote how their political boss or pastor or "committeeman" tells them to vote.

if it's not truly one man/woman - one vote

what's the point?

Ezra:

You're in no position to dismiss 1.5 million Democratic votes.

Shame on you.

Well, you're in no position to accept them either.

i am so fed up with you clowns, olbermann included. if i wanted to read this kind of tripe, i would read drudge. by the way, has anyone ever seem ezra klein and maureen dowd in the same room?

"Ordinarily I'm a big fan of Digby, but she's treading on Dick Cheney territory there, in the sense that she's equating people mocking the situation that has been created in Michigan and Florida with mocking the voters who are making the best of it."

this might be a valid point weren't it so clear that if Obama instead of Clinton had come ahead in Florida, the same people (including Ezra Klein) would be telling us what a meaningful turn of events that is. They're not mocking the system or dismissing voters in general: they're simply expressing contempt for those uncouth voters who dare to vote for Clinton rather than for St. Obama.

The country needs leadership that only the Obama vanguard can provide. The poor and uneducated can not be left to their own devices or they may merely be satisfied with voting for Clinton.

Wait a minute -- is that picture you show one of a "Dean Scream" being made by St. John McCain? I wonder if the media will pick up on this?

Something tells me, no.

Lmao, did we need any more proof that Digby was a mindless Hillbot?

Who really gives a fuck what that coward has to say? She can't even withstand a few nasty comments about Hillary without shutting down comment section. That tells how you how much she REALLY cares about people getting to have their voices heard.

Digby's conclusion really applies to all of TAPPED these days: Who do you think you are?

People who can tell the difference between the spring training matches, also played in Florida, and the World Series?

And I think Digby's off the mark here. The 'Florida was disenfranchised' line will likely be used by the Clinton campaign this week; if it is, it'll be cheap, cheap politics.

No respect for the hundreds of thousands of people who came out and voted in a primary that may -- or may not -- have been meaningless for reasons beyond their control.

Plenty of respect. Blame the GOP-majority Florida legislature most of all. But lots of people go to spring training games too, and they know that the result won't count in the season standings.

Anyway, the property tax ballot initiative will count just fine.

I don't believe in "dynasties"

I think the 'dynasty' frame has actually backfired, because it allows comparisons with perfectly respectable families in which multiple generations are drawn to public service. Bill & Hillary aren't a dynasty; they're just a political machine that has switched heads due to forced retirement. It's more like a couple moving assets to avoid tax problems or bankruptcy than a multigenerational family business.

"this might be a valid point weren't it so clear that if Obama instead of Clinton had come ahead in Florida, the same people (including Ezra Klein) would be telling us what a meaningful turn of events that is. They're not mocking the system or dismissing voters in general: they're simply expressing contempt for those uncouth voters who dare to vote for Clinton rather than for St. Obama."

Good point. That's exactly what the Republicans said about the crybabies who complained about Al Gore not getting the Florida delegates in 2000.

The fact is, if elections are worth doing at all, they are worth doing properly. One of the biggest weapons the Democrats have going into 2008 is that a major flaw in the process was exposed in 2000 and the Republicans did nothing to fix it in a six-year long hegemony. They didn't even acknowledge that there was a problem that needed fixing.

Playing fast and loose with the rules in Florida and Michigan undercuts the advantage the Democrats had on this issue.

This situation is going to come back to haunt the Democrats in November regardless of who wins. The party can no longer claim that it contested the 2000 election because of fairness.

Remember: "if Gore instead of Bush had come ahead in Florida, the same people (including Ezra Klein) would have been telling us what a meaningful turn of events that was."

If you want me to vote Dem, nominate Obama.

Come on people, we've got to do something - we're about to lose Bogey's vote!

Sure, this doesn't sound like a big deal, but I can only surmise from his many, many comments stipulating what exactly the Democratic party has to do to earn his personal support that Bogey's vote will actually, for mysterious reasons, be multiplied by a factor of 25 million or so come November.

Or maybe I've just learned so much about Bogey over the last few days that I'm starting to care about his endlessly intriguing political odyssey as much as he does (which is saying a lot!).

Something tells me that if Obama had won in Florida...

Ezra's tone would be ENTIRELY different.

LMAO!

'She can't even withstand a few nasty comments about Hillary without shutting down comment section.'

Translation: Even when Hillary isn't the topic, I must constantly maintain the echo-chamber effect of telling everyone on the intertubes how evil Hillary is.

JasonC if you want to vote your identity dominated politics and "expand your tent" (this is how you won the 2006 Congressional Elections) then yes, you WANT my vote.

does Jim Webb pass your "party purity litmus test"?

btw.. I've been reading some of the conservative blogs and the lunatics there have made me change my previous position that the leftist lunatics were more frightening than the rightist ones.

talk about conspiracy theorists! (on "conservative" blogs)