How is Moore not "elite"?

His village is Manhattan. He's won an Oscar. He produces movies. He's had his own television show. His children go to expensive private schools. He travels the world and gets invited on talk shows. He's a published best-selling author. He's recognized around the world (even in Paris!). He is a multi-millionaire.

Agreed. And as much as I like Michael Moore, since when was mandatory respect for Moore a prerequisite for service in the Obama administration?

Really, this obsession with finding ways to be insulted by Obama is getting old.

BTW, you were great on Countdown last night. You should do more TV.

Ezra, very glad to see your follow-up post on Gupta. Thanks for elaborating on your view of the Moore/Gupta encounter.

Your detailed explanation and clarification is especially appreciated as so many in the media/internet today refuse to 'engage' and explain when questioned. So, kudos.

Finally, you are much more charitable than I would be in your overall assessment of Gupta. to my mind, too much 'slippage' on his part Saturday mornings on a variety of health issues. Maybe he was simply acting as a CNN mouthpiece. All too often I felt he did not come off as such but a genuine supporter of big Pharma and the medical industry. Time will tell.

Where does Ezra say that Moore is not an elite? He wrote, "Krugman says that the problem with Gupta's performance was that it was another example of elites engaging in 'Village' behavior." That's the only time the word "elite" appears in the post, and I'd say Krugman's claim is accurate.

Moore may be a cultural and economic elite, but the word has many meanings. Certainly the Beltway / journalism elites don't consider him one of them. That is what's relevant here.

How is Moore not "elite"?

Wow, kaybeel. You really don't understand the social dynamics of snobbery very well. That actually puts a bad light on everything else you've had to say, because it clearly comes from the perspective of a bit of socio-political cluelessness.

Sorry, still not buying your argument. Gupta's point of view during this whole debacle seemed very clear to me. He appears to be in the "mend it, not end it" camp w.r.t. drug companies, insurance companies, etc., rather than starting from an actual progressive position on the issues. I want someone who starts out to the left of Obama on this, because everything we've seen of Obama thusfar indicates that the only direction things will move is to the right from the starting point. Max Baucus' involvement on this scares me for the same reasons. Like I said, I'm going to cross my fingers on this one.

What Krugman said:
What bothered me about the incident was that it was what Digby would call Village behavior: Moore is an outsider, he’s uncouth, so he gets smeared as unreliable even though he actually got it right.

Moore is uncouth. He is not an outsider. Ezra through in the word "elite" to talk about an "elite" person ganging up on the outsider.
Moore is no outsider.

Wow, kaybeel. You really don't understand the social dynamics of snobbery very well. That actually puts a bad light on everything else you've had to say, because it clearly comes from the perspective of a bit of socio-political cluelessness.

I must be behind on my snobbery studies. Back in my day, rich white men were on the ladder somewhere above people with "brown skin".
Also, people on the tv were definitely a step below the film makers.

I guess I'll have to learn that being fat and wearing a baseball cap gives you instant "regular guy" status these day.

There's a methodological argument over whether it's fair to use projections or not. But neither side is technically incorrect here.

That’s not an accurate description of the context of the dispute. Gupta didn’t go on T.V. and say, “using other methodological calculations you get a different number” or explain where Moore got his numbers and why a different methodology would be more accurate. Gupta used different numbers and left the audience with implication that Moore had used false or misleading numbers. It was obviously the case that Gupta was cherry picking his methodology to create the appearance of impropriety. Moore used legitimate numbers, Gupta left the audience with the impression he hadn’t.

Gupta’s segment was an instance where the audience would been better more likely to possess accurate view point before viewing then after.

Sorry, missed this

Certainly the Beltway / journalism elites don't consider him one of them.

Do you think the Beltway elites have considered Gupta one of them? He's not been a beltway pundit.
He's hardly even a journalism "elite". He has a good position, but he's not the one to go to when you need to break a story. Moore definitely has a bigger megaphone.

Also, people on the tv were definitely a step below the film makers

I think that’s the crux of the claim of snobbery. Moore is more famous and successful then his detractors, but he bypassed the mainstream processes and instead became famous for harassing business executives. It’s not that Moore’s not an elite person in a strict sense, but he’s not accepted as a legitimate member of the elite.

Ditto on the Countdown performance, Ezra. I didn't even know you were gonna be on. When you suddenly appeared on screen, my reaction was such that my wife thought that you must be a friend of mine or something.
I've had my irks with Gupta too since the Moore showdown, but if accepts the job then he must be on board. If the agenda doesn't appeal to him he can say no.

Michael Moore is, indeed, an 'elite' in the sense that he is a wealthy "observer".

I understand that he's uncooth, self-taught in the areas he claims to be an expert it, etc.

*AND*...he's still FAT

For me, the most disturbing part of Gupta's accusations against Moore was when he continually tried to argue that Moore had insisted that health care was "free" when the French were actually "swimming in taxes."

As Moore points out, the "swimming in taxes" line was something directly out of the film itself, so to claim that he was creating a different impression was wrong. But more troubling to me was Gupta's perspective that Moore was effectively lying to people by claiming health care was "free."

But Moore's point is correct: the health care is free. People pay more in taxes, sure. A large part of what they pay in taxes goes to support heath care. But the services they are then provided are free. You don't pay a separate charge for health services, nor do you get to opt out of your taxes.

And the further point is important: everyone is covered. There is no premium that must be met. No denial for preexisting conditions. No attempt to keep people from getting coverage, all of which affect our system, which is definitely not free. When you get sick in France, whatever you've paid in taxes has already paid for your health care, which makes it very different than our system, where whatever you pay in terms of premiums guarantees you nothing.

Now, was Gupta merely being contradictory? The fact that he wants a policy role in the Administration could be a sign that he does, actually, see a place for government health care (which he also lamely attempts to denigrate). This exchange, though, was the most worrying part of the whole thing for me.

To bad Moore isn't blond, female, and saying only lies. Then they'd fawn all over her.

Gupta is a jackass for defending the indefensible status quo of the American medical system. He could have recognized the issues Moore brought up, and help to put them in context. Instead, he chose to be pedantic, and the rest of the media followed his lead.

Gupta is just the latest disappointment of the Obama regime. The evidence is mounting up and he hasn't even taken the oath of office yet.
This is what you get when you nominate someone with little to no record to rely on. You trusted what he said, instead. And for those who threw out everything to "make history".....you will get exactly what you deserve. Gupta is not the last of your disappointments to come.

Gupta is not the last of your disappointments to come.

FredJimBobJero never disappoints, because we expect nothing but filth and bigotry from him.

FredJimBobJero never disappoints, because we expect nothing but filth and bigotry from him.

It's always sweet when you see Brendan with nothing to say but personal attacks.

Truth hurts, doesn't it buddy? Tell me the left is not already disappointed.

Say it ain't so! (heh)

Taking each of thse things by themselves is not an issue I suppose, but taking all three issues into account seems to paint a different picture of Gupta, does it not?

Ezra,

Your biases are showing in this post. Gupta was clearly attacking Moore for supporting single-payer healthcare. Gupta's hostility here puts him out of the mainstream of American physicians, of whom 59% support single-payer. It is of course entirely understandable, given Gupta's outsize salary.

With your noted hostility to single-payer, of course you defend Gupta!

Did this Keckley guy say anything that was clearly or weakly an egregious example of ideologically biased claptrap? I realize the issue is simply that Gupta talked to him and repeated things he said, but did he say anything outlandish?

This whole Moore - Gupta thing has been the biggest instance I've seen in a while of kneejerk political behavior -- Is there a name for the Moore acolyte brigade? Moorites sounds like some kind of moon rock, Moorons is a bit harsh...

Like I said, Jim Matthews, DFW's primo online stalking sociopath, never disappoints.

kaybeel: "Do you think the Beltway elites have considered Gupta one of them? He's not been a beltway pundit. He's hardly even a journalism "elite". He has a good position, but he's not the one to go to when you need to break a story. Moore definitely has a bigger megaphone."

If you don't think that the chief medical correspondent at CNN is a journalism elite, then maybe we don't agree on what the word means.

He is on tv, or prominently featured on CNN.com, just about every day. This is a way bigger megaphone than Moore has ever had, especially when you consider that a great deal of Moore's exposure is in the context of calling him a dishonest left-wing freak.

Of course people don't go to Gupta to break a story. He's a feature correspondent, not a hard news reporter, an anchor, or a Sunday talk show host. That has nothing to do with the fact that he's an elite. People don't go to Tom Friedman or David Brooks to break stories either. Are they not journalism elites?

Gupta's status aside, people tend to absorb to attitudes of the organizations they're associated with. I have little doubt that the general attitude at CNN about Moore is that he is a dirty working class radical who doesn't know his place.

Oops, I'm Anonymous at 8:38.

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