Does this mean we all have to fess up to the undergound conspiracies we're part of, via our membership on non-public listservs?

Wait. Wait a minute.

So you're saying that a bunch of like-minded people who share the same profession talk to each other? About stuff related to their jobs?

OVER E-MAIL?

How long did you plan on betraying our trust like this, Ezra... if that IS YOUR REAL NAME!

is politico doing this to try to be a pest to you? as payback for you criticizing them?

Also, I can't help but chuckle at the line:

"Mike Calderone's story on Journolist basically gets the list serv right, though the Politico headline, the Drudge headline, and so forth get it quite wrong" that was later followed by the Erickson quote.

In other words, Politico dolled up a headline about liberal writers (gasp!) having a listserv to yet again get some linkage from Drudge... which then made right-wing bloggers all pick up the story and throw a tantrum about how liberals are an echo chamber of talking points.

Amazing.

I demand to know the content of every politics related conversation Ezrza has either in person or by phone.

it's weird to see a listserv, one of the foundational forms of communication and information-gathering, called "antithetical to the spirit of the internet." Next Kaus will be doing an investigation on the tyranny of backchanneling. It may also be evidence of the affective and attitudinal differences between liberals and libertarian/conservatives: one seeks forums for controlled and protected deliberation as inherently good or at least morally neutral, and the other can't figure out why anyone would want to engage in a debating community outside of arranging a vast global cabal.

Well, I have been disappointed by how congratulatory certain liberal bloggers have been towards Douthat - how insidery, how Villager-esque, etc. But if anything, this is the opposite problem, obviously. Meanwhile, Mike Calderone's tone and angle deserve all the respect Tyro and August gave him and less, and the critics quoted are garden-variety wingnuts, so they're good enemies to have.

So... meh. this blog post is the first I've heard about the issue, and based on it and reading the Politico article I'd say it's the kind of thing to ask questions about (if Calderone didn't already know that there are a lot of off-the-record list servs around DC like you say, which come to think of it would be a big thing to be ignorant of), but the answers aren't newsworthy. Smoke but no fire.

Also, maybe I'm giving Calderone too much benefit of the doubt, but it seems like you and other members were being more close-mouthed than you needed to be. There's a difference between having the content of the list serv being off-the-record and facts about the list serv itself being off-the-record, isn't there?

Wouldn't it be cool if they let me join this private-party mailing list where all of the people quoted in the morning newspaper or on MSNBC say what they really think? I could ask them questions and learn lots of interesting stuff.

It would of course be the death of the local newspaper, cable TV, and the whole tuned-for-5th-graders media that is propped up by commercials and marketing departments and official spokesmen and pressmen's unions and whatever other infrastructure keeps me from knowing what there really is to be known.

We could just completely skip the middlemen and content filters and connect me straight to the people who know something, not the ones who quote AP articles and drink too much.

Nah. Who would want that?

I don't think anyone is naive enough to mutter darkly about an evil listserv that will take over the world (ah, that sequel to Watchmen! Finally!). But I don't think it's sinister for the same reason I think it's something that ought to be known about and possibly criticized: it's insular and a bit self-fulfilling. Access - in theory - to stuff others don't have access to, a way to have "Washingon Insider" status (one of those dubious achievements I always think one is better of missing)... these things lead to a kind of authority (hey... is that David Broder over there?) that deserves, indeed insists, on being challenged. And, well, exposed.

One of the hardest things, I think, about the new media era we're in is that so much of the "old" era - our notions of journalism, criticism, analysis, etc - is on its head: we have critics believing their journalists, Journalists believing they ought to do analysis... and an overall change in how we get, process and think about information and news. And really... we're making up rules as we go, redefining things without a lot of solid ground... and wondering why things keep seeming so muddled. I mean, what's more ludicrous - JournoList, or Politico (Politico!) trying to make an expose of it? Seriously? An off the record listserv of a lot of (lefty) people plugged in, in various ways, to Washingotn's information complex? No big deal, I suppose. Just more handy self selection, insular conversing, among people who agree... and really, what's new about that, these days? And really... isn't it a good thing?

Well... isn't it?

In fact, yeah, I think I was being too generous to Calderone. He created the impression of secrecy by saying that he tried to contact three dozen people and couldn't get anything out of most of them, but somehow he managed to name eight people on the list serv and get quotes out of at least six of them. This, among people who know how the media works and have reason to be wary of talking to a reporter whether or not they've done anything wrong.

The Politico article isn't a legitimate news story given an overwrought, sensationalist treatment like I thought at first, it's a personal and/or partisan hit piece. Dis is right.

Funny that the same progressives on JOURNOLIST are the ones who rail against the "vast right-wing conspiracy".
Projection maybe?
Surprised progressives don't accuse Rightwingers of getting orders from Karl Rove using the SITHLORD listserv

And Ezra you should not call it a feminists listserv.
http://www.rachellucas.com/index.php/2008/04/16/delusional-feminist-week-continues/
It is a Policy listserv.

Projection maybe?

Wouldn't it be more logical to view this entire hyper-emotional kerfluffle on Drudge and Political as one big act of projection?

Especially on this blog where we have a couple of trolls here whose only purpose is to regurgitate the right-wing talking points they've been fed onto the comments section. It's become pathetic enough that now we see the right wingers whining, "SEE! YOU guys are part of the REAL talking points conspiracy!" Pathetic.

Is Calderone a mis-spelling of Corleone?

Best watch out for the hit men in the hood.

Is Michael's diaper wet or messed, or does he just bawl whenever he's feeling left out of the convo?

And Ezra you should not call it a feminists listserv... It is a Policy listserv.

Right, and the two are mutually exclusive because feminists are too stupid to understand policy.

/Republican
Wait, huh?

Paul L. brings up an important point though, Ezra: Is Michael Nifong on the list serv?

Typical hit-job on the left by the prototype inside-the-beltway DC heads at Politico.com. Just like the way they pounded the outrage over Obama skipping the Gridiron dinner.

Anything that leaves them out or is not in the old mold of conservative DC big media corp politics is not A-OK with Politico.

Happily, in my experience, most wonks were more than willing to provide quick commentary e-mail.

I was wondering where the juice-box crew thingy was. Knew it had to be there.

That's what the Politico thinks I'd look like if I were made of cartoon.

Sort of a giant-headed honky Obama flying through space with a Commodore 64 laptop. A B1FF for Generation Awesome.

max
['Neat.']

It's a shame that nothing has been mentioned until Ezra was 'outed'.

So, how long ago did you set up this insiders site?

It doesn't seem the best way to challenge your own preconceived notions.
So if the idea is to get your message broadcast to the public, it seems like a worthwhile endeavor.

If the idea is to do good thorough journalism or wonkery, the self-contained feedback loop would work against that goal.

Remember that "Information wants to be free"..

Someday the archives will hit the web somehow ... my guess is that when that happens we'll understand why so much important info doesn't hit the MSM anymore.

ElV, spare us your contrived faux-outrage. The funny thing is that you're only expreszsing it because you were fed a bunch of talking points telling you to be outraged about it.

kaybeel is funny, though, criticizing Ezra for not broadcasting his message to the public which might challenge his preconceived notions in the comments section of Ezra's blog.

Cyrus,
You should follow the link.
Ezra complained that Feministing.com and Feministe.us are labeled as Feminist blogs instead of Policy Blogs.

Tyro,
Maybe I got my talking points from the SITHLORD listserv.
How can you complain about it without being a hypocrite for defending JOURNOLIST.

What makes it really funny, though, is all the left bloggers spending the last year complaining about "The Village".

all the left bloggers spending the last year complaining about "The Village".

We mock Ezra and MattY for giving too much credit and intention to bloggers like Megan McArdle and Ross Douthat because of their social connections to them all the time. It's you, kaybeel, who is trying to mock Ezra's for his lack of interest in having his preconceived nations challenged by doing so in the public comments section of his blog.

Part of your problem, kaybeel, is of course that you don't actually pay much attention to the rest of the comments or post anything particularly thoughtful. Rather, like most members of the right, you use comments sections as a public graffiti space in order to regurgitate talking points. The strange irony being that when they're trying to make a kerfluffle out of JOURNOLIST, they're doing it based on talking points they've been fed and told to be outraged about. I can only assume that part of what's going on is to give the hoi polloi on the right a reason not to be self-reflective about their own intellectual sins by allowing them to project their guilt onto a DC-living writer who knows a lot of journalists.

Whatever else I might think about this whole business (some non-stupid, though I think ultimately misguided, issues have been raised) I would just like to go on the record (see what I did there?) as someone who understands that there is a difference between "secret," "private," and "unofficial." Sometimes these overlap, sometimes they don't. But it's frankly bullshit to leap from "off the record conversation(s)" to "omg super secret backroom cabal!"

Jus' sayin'.

Tyro:kaybeel is funny, though, criticizing Ezra for not broadcasting his message to the public which might challenge his preconceived notions in the comments section of Ezra's blog.
=========
Ezra's blog is but a tiny portion of the general public, Tyro.
His comments section (with about 2 non-liberal commenters) a smaller portion yet. Do you think all of the bloggers and journalists participating in JournoList make sure to check in every day with each other's few contrary commenters? I'm guessing no.

Bypassing contrary opinion is exactly the purpose of the list. If it weren't, it would be open to non-leftists.

Also, I think you are misreading me. I'm not saying he isn't broadcasting his message to the public. I'm saying the JournoList with its connections does get the overall message broadcast to the public. That would be what it is good for.

But it's frankly bullshit to leap from "off the record conversation(s)" to "omg super secret backroom cabal!"

Not if Politico and Drudge told you to make that leap of outrage.

And kaybeel, as I have a real job which actually requires me to come up with ideas, I actually have a hard time getting outraged or thinking there's a shadowy conspiracy involved in speaking with and e-mailing colleagues about what I'm working on.... even one where there's an inherent agreement that we not use the discussions to tell others what I'm working on before I release it myself. Your concern and outrage is as precious as it is disingenuous. Particularly when Ezra exposes his ideas to criticism all the time, and you actually do it in his own public forum (despite the fact that most of your concerns, and those of other right wingers, tend to be just canned responses based on whatever the message-of-the-day is that you are supposed to repeat in reply to whatever issue Ezra posted about).

Let's face it, most of the people on the left criticizing this would love to be a part of it, and the right wingers would love to have one of their own with experts of this caliber.

On the bright side: welcome to teh big time baby!

ElV, spare us your contrived faux-outrage.

???

Who's "outraged"?

Ezra can do what he pleases. It's a free country. The problem people have with all of this is the perception put forth of all of these bloggers arriving at the same conclusion on issues independently when now we know that's clearly not the case.

It's all "talking points" that have been discussed and agreed upon in advance. Not disclosing this mechanism is dishonesty by omission.

You should follow the link.
Ezra complained that Feministing.com and Feministe.us are labeled as Feminist blogs instead of Policy Blogs.

OK, I followed the link. I confess I only skimmed the comments, but in the post itself I think I finally figured out what you're trying to say, although it took me a while to understand your reasoning. Next time, try linking to something that relates to the actual subject, or at least making your point explicit rather than waiting for us to deduce.

You think Ezra is being... dishonest? Hypocritical? to identify some things as "feminist" right here when, discussing something unrelated, he said that it's a double standard to identify those things as "feminist?" Do I understand you?

El Viajero, policy analysis is talking points now?

Especially funny because you're repeating the "talking points" talking point.

I actually have a hard time getting outraged or thinking there's a shadowy conspiracy

I am far from outraged, nor do I think there is a shadowy conspiracy.

I think there has been a well-controlled, unmentioned, closed feedback loop designed for people who have an interest in getting a certain message broadcast to the general public.

That isn't good journalism, but it is good messaging.
There's nothing wrong with that, but it is good for the reader to know.
Do you disagree?

Ezra,

I am really glad to hear about this listserv, as I think that you are a great point person for such an effort. So good on you there.

Also, I am unbelievably glad to see the over the top "scary" coverage on it. So dang funny it almost hurts. I

Ezra Klein uses email? And talks to people on email about politics? My trust, it is betrayed.

I bet this is only the tip of the iceberg. What if he owns a phone too?

dorky hypocrite lib pukes.

I think there has been a well-controlled, unmentioned, closed feedback loop designed for people who have an interest in getting a certain message broadcast to the general public.

Yes, and we see you, ElV, and others act in slavish obedience to it all the time. And your experience with it causes you to project your perceptions on to others when it's unwarranted and as part and parcel of a tic you have which causes you to make false equivalences on a regular basis. It's almost as if Politico and Drudge are seeking to wipe your ability to help you engage in any form of self-reflection or self-awareness by trying to distract you into following up on outrage-of-the-day sort of non-stories in order to firm up your ideological blinders and keep you repeating talking points.

"max hats" seems to understand the dynamic of the situation the best of just about anyone on this thread.

Ezra can do what he pleases. It's a free country. The problem people have with all of this is the perception put forth of all of these bloggers arriving at the same conclusion on issues independently when now we know that's clearly not the case.

Previously, when I saw multiple liberal blogs all making posts on the same day about some obscure part of the tax code or food policy, I naturally just assumed that the same thought occurred to everyone at the same time.

liberal intelligence = oxymoron

Liberals are a bunch of brainwashed spineless dorks who hate America.

Watch what this former KGB agent says about how all you spineless dorks have been brainwashed:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2307456730142665916&ei=2Oi_SYW1MYL8rgL1oKX5Cw&q=yuri+bezmenov&hl=en

dorky hypocrite lib pukes.

When I voted for Obama I thought it was the end of email listservs!! More like Nobama amirite? Ezra Nein more like OMG.

I've really got to get back to work. . .

'Listserv' is almost an antiquated term.

Still, it's almost as if people are gleefully professing their ignorance of academic and industry-specific discussion lists, or things like stock tipsheets (which migrated from snailmail to fax to email) or circulars like the Nelson Report, which are hugely influential on DC's for-pol wonks.

Anyway, Ezra: mailman, smartlist, majordomo, ezmlm?

Yes, and we see you, ElV, and others act in slavish obedience to it all the time.

See? Now that is funny.
On a post in which Ezra talks about his wide-reaching efforts at coordination, *I* get accused as acting in obedience to.... something.
Because I dare to read this liberal blog disagree with Ezra on occasion.

Hilarious.

Ezra talks about his wide-reaching efforts at coordination

That first sentence of Ezra's post was sarcasm. Look it up.

It's you who's projecting an equivalence between your devotion to widespread right-wing efforts at ensuring your devotion to a set of outrages-of-the-day on to Ezra's membership on a listserv.

And then you have the audacity to criticize Ezra for supposedly not opening up his ideas to pushback from other, differing opinions on the open comments section of his own blog!

Finally!

An answer as to how Obama got the Democratic nomination. Twas a coordinated media effort.

Good to know yall can march lockstep when need be.

It's you who's projecting an equivalence between your devotion to widespread right-wing efforts at ensuring your devotion to a set of outrages-of-the-day

What I like about you, Tyro, is your open-mindedness. Your ability to consider other opinions.

And then you have the audacity to criticize Ezra for supposedly not opening up his ideas to pushback from other, differing opinions on the open comments section of his own blog!

I'm not criticizing Ezra. I'm saying he has found an excellent way to make sure the left gets its message out.

kaybeel, ah yes, let's get the outrageously corrupt liberal biased media to make sure to be in lock step with the communist party talking points. And that's supposed to be a good thing? (rolling eyes)

"Journalism" is officially dead, at least from the corrupt leftist's who get involved in it for the explicit purpose of activism.

"It is true that the list is center to left. That's not about fostering ideology but preventing a collapse into flame war. The emphasis is on empiricism, not ideology."

The implication seems to be that centrist and right-of-center journalists and academicians are incapable of empiricism and/or civil discourse. On the contrary, If it's truth and rigorous thinking you're after, I'd think you'd all do better to have your assumptions challenged. Instead of checking would-be list-serve members for their lefty bona fides, why not vet them for their capacity for civil discussion?

I think there's a bit of rationalization/self-delusion going on. The real purpose of the listlooks to be honing a left-of-center message for mass consumption and helping left-leaning journos efficiently tap left-leaning sources who will provide background (talking points) and/or speak for attribution.

The idea that listproc, an application whose last major code update was in 1998, is going to bring down political debate on teh interwebs, makes me laugh. I'll be thinking about this all day as I send mail to users explaining that their subscribe request was rejected because listproc chokes on HTML.

Obviously Politico fails at internets.

The article make it sound like J-date, except without women. Is that what you were going for?

Calderone is a hack that works for a Repubican/Drudge publication that bought credibility amongst journalists by paying them salaries higher than %98 of Americans.

Politico.com journalist's loyalty is in protecting their %2 club.

Politico.com's mandate is to push right wing memes with just enough attacks on hypocritical Republicans (fish in a barrel) to give them a gloss of credibility.

Politico.com is Drudge + a staff on meth.

...
In other Drudge-Luddite news:

This intertube thing that brought us all together, I think it's conspiratorial tentacles have become quite unmanageable.

Instead of all being members of the tentacular intertubes conspiracy I suggest a national policy of building a new (pneu) pneumatic message system.

A pneumatic message system would clearly be easier for Drudge blow hards like Michael Calderone to understand and follow.

It's just Politico whoring for more face time on the shout-down shows...Editors worrying about generating buzz and publicity more than reportage or cogent commentary.

So, how about dishing up the right-wing listservs, eh there Mr. Calderone? I'm sure we could get some face-palm quotes off of them, maybe bounce the snippets off oh, say, Matt Taibbi or Che Guevara's ghost for some fair balance.

Calderone's got a huge double-L of flashing neon centered on his forehead. LLoser. But the GOPers have been trottin' out their all-star team the last few days.

Notice that cartoon Ezra look a bit like 44...have we seen them in the same room together?

It's times like this I hate living on the opposite side of the globe. By the time I wake up, there's already 51 comments and the conversation is pretty much done. Bummer.

As if anyone needed yet more evidence that the political internet has become an echo chamber for tribal circle-jerkers.

[and now for the onslaught of OurSide's snarkmongers against the dissenter]

One word: Nomenklatura.

So conservatives want to know this: in the words of the great Jeff Goldstein-when do Frum, Brooks, and Parker get invited to the Algonquin Table?

What? They don't get the decoder ring and the secret handshake?

It should be funny that I am more up on technology than the entire rightwing blogosphere, save the Paul people. But it's also a little worrying. Have the conservatives commenting here truly never encountered the listserv? For the kindergarten graduation committee, or Knitters Anonymous, or your professional association?

Good lord, if you people are the vast left-wing conspiracy, we're in absolutely no danger. Carry on.

What a masterful bit of misdirection, leading us away from the real conspiracy, IFA.

Oh please. If a bunch of leftist lemmings want to have their little electronic coffee klatsch and discuss the metaphysics of universal health care and Cheez Whiz, fine. It keeps them occupied and feeling good about themselves, while the rest of us get the real work done.

I think we are beginning to see more clearly how large numbers of leftist "journalists" can come up with the EXACT same word to describe an event, policy or debate.

Does Bergala, Rahm and Stephie log on to your listserv before or after their daily strategy session to coordinate the daily LIE for America? Has anybody given thoughts to where you and the rest are going to seek exile when the pitchfork wielding Americans show up?

What is hilarious is that the idiot Left actually believe the nonsense that conservatives are the non-thinking lemmings!

I always wondered how every 'journalist' on NBC, MSNBC, ABC, and the NYT came up with the same silly catchphrases on the very same day to demonize the anti-conservative cause du jour. It's pretty clear now.

Awesome. A fun club where maybe you can take shots at each other in private while keeping happy fun faces on in public.

Why do people always think about conspiracies and running of rubes?

Beyond me.

How can you not see the problem with this? It's suppose to be journalism. An unbiased view on what's happening. When you only go to people that agree with your views for information, that isn't Journalism. That's propaganda. If i wanted to do a hit job on Obama not being an American Citizen, i'm sure i could e-mail and call each person that filed a lawsuit over his birth certificate to give me info, then say multiple sources in my article, and claim it to be journalism, but we all know that would be a load of crap.
Here's your new problem... Politico broke the story. Politico has reporters on the list. Do you allow the politico reporters to remain on the list and risk them exposing more, or do you kick them off the list, and have them expose everything they know as revenge for being kicked off???

12:11AM:

I think we are beginning to see more clearly how large numbers of leftist "journalists" can come up with the EXACT same word to describe an event, policy or debate.

12:18AM:

I always wondered how every 'journalist' on NBC, MSNBC, ABC, and the NYT came up with the same silly catchphrases on the very same day to demonize the anti-conservative cause du jour.

self-pwn3d.

Great.
Meet the New Media. Same as the Old Media...except for the body hair.

I know this conversation is pretty much done...but my goodness, this is bizarre to me! This outrage assumes that these are the ONLY people Ezra talks to or reads, and that no one else in the world has EVER sought advice from people in similar positions. We have NO idea what these people say on the listserv; I'm on tracking groups in the entertainment industry, and we post rumors, search requests, scripts, etc. And then we go to outside sources to get things verified.

Even if this didn't exist, you already know Ezra reads the blogs of people in this group, because he comments on them ALL the time. Did you assume he never talked to anyone? Would you only trust him if he had never spoken to another liberal in his life?

Strange. Very strange that this is even troubling. And I can assure you, I would not find it troubling if I found out conservatives had a listserve. I'm sure they do. And there are probably some that are mixed! Or some that are alumni listservs! Or health policy only! There are all kinds of listservs, for all kinds of things...

The problem is, if people on the right were doing this, you lefties would be screaming from the rooftops. But it's okay for you to do it since different rules apply to you.

Actually, that may not be true... do ANY rules apply to the left?

"Last April, criticism of ABC’s handling of a Democratic presidential debate took shape on JList before morphing into an open letter to the network, signed by more than 40 journalists and academics — many of whom are JList members."

The problem is, if people on the right were doing this, you lefties would be screaming from the rooftops. But it's okay for you to do it since different rules apply to you.

Actually, that may not be true... do ANY rules apply to the left?

If journalists and bloggers on the right don't have e-mail discussion with each other, it's because they're blithering morons too busy planning out their super awesome Galt-themed Tea Party.

The first rule of journolist, you do not talk about journolist. The second rule of journolist is you don't talk about journolist. If it's your first day on the list, you must post something...

republicants dont have a listserv because the ones that matter meet in person at those weekly meetings arranged by Norquist

half the time the list helps EK work out what he is thinking and leads to a better post and the other half the list dissuades him from posting anything too provocative if there is one real populist on that list I would be stunned

Don't you realize, having a listserv or a blog is proof of a vast left-wing conspiracy? Having a network of tax-exempt foundations and publications funded by a shadowy group of plutocrats to espouse a common philosophy and gin up and promote cherry-picked "research" is freedom of speech and policy advocacy.

Ezra, you dissemble terribly. If you were truly interested in advancing the knowledge and understanding of the group you'd have a mix of center-left and center-right opinion.

Your full of the brown stuff!

I can't believe the morons that want to believe this is some kind of conspiracy, or something necessary to keep people "on message". What a bunch of pantywaist little whiners.

It is amusing to see how few readers here have even half a clue about what an email list is. Fewer still know that calling it a listserv is like calling an MP3 player an iPod (hope that wasn't too technical for you).

It's not a website. You don't "log onto" it. It's email. Sent to you and a list of other people. It arrives in the same inbox as those pictures of your granchildren, powerpoint presentations with laughing kittens and funny unclickable boxes, those intriguing Nigerian bank inquiries, and V1A6R/\ spam.

When you post on the list, everyone on the list gets your post. When you reply, everyone gets your reply.

I guess it tells us the difference between the newly technological and those whose familiarity with the net predates chatrooms.

AHG: "The article make it sound like J-date, except without women. Is that what you were going for?"

Are you saying that liberal journalists aren't ever women?

Oh haha I geddit they must be a bunch of Jewish faggots right right!

Sheesh.

"I always wondered how every 'journalist' on NBC, MSNBC, ABC, and the NYT came up with the same silly catchphrases on the very same day to demonize the anti-conservative cause du jour. It's pretty clear now."

Really? It is clear to you now? Care to give actual concrete examples? Thought not. Just repeating what Drudge or Politico said. Too stupid to think for yourself, you blindly accept as truth anything you read that you agree with. Not surprising, though. You're probably a product of Bush's No Child Left Behind program, aimed at dumbing down education and producing automatons like you who never learned to write, read critically or understand when you're being used. Tools, the lot of you.

Are you now, or have you ever been a member of The Blogoshere?

I am more disturbed by the unapologetic elitism than I am the list itself. Obviously, this particular list is exclusive, invitation-only, and composed of the most feted, privileged journalists. Like prep school. This way, they keep only people like themselves in the group. I'm sure the list is predominantly composed of white, straight men who went to "the right schools"--yes? (shock)

I just hate seeing "leftists" act like William F Buckley and the National fucking Review. This is why the left has gone to shit, too many damn rich kids and their summer-camp habits brought into the political arena, instead of actual organizing.

Signed,
profoundly disappointed.

I am in a secret society of scientists bent on world domination. We have a listserv, and a secret Facebook group.

So, what's the hot topic on LeftyList today? How to defend Obama's non-apology?

Just curious.

Let's see.

Journalists are liberals. Liberals aren't interested in any information or input from non liberals. Journalism is a fast dying profession.

GG Journolist!

This puzzles me, "...foster a safe space ...could freely talk" Safe...? Freely talk...? What does this mean? No bad smells? No spotlights in the eyes, "Where were you at 2 AM on the 13th!" Perhaps to avoid questions like: those of you who can identify people only in political terms, "rightwingnut, libtard, feminist, white,black, gay, straight, Dem, Repub, etc. etc., is this all you can see? Where is your charity of heart? Just exactly what do you believe human beings are, mere collections of bits of stuff, and consciousness is a function of possessions? Here is a very scary, unsafe statement, we are made in the image and likeness of God. (I can hear the screeches from here.) Here is another one, the four last things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell. Pick on of the last two. One more to really terrify you, the Eucharist is the Real Presence of Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. Still feel safe? "IHS"

> Is it off-the-record? Yes.

Or not.

Kaus is to be admired for puncturing the pretension.

So... meh. this blog post is the first I've heard about the issue, and based on it and reading the Politico article I'd say it's the kind of thing to ask questions about (if Calderone didn't already know that there are a lot of off-the-record list servs around DC like you say, which come to think of it would be a big thing to be ignorant of), but the answers aren't newsworthy. Smoke but no fire.
I just hate seeing "leftists" act like William F Buckley and the National fucking Review. This is why the left has gone to shit, too many damn rich kids and their summer-camp habits brought into the political arena, instead of actual organizing.

So... meh. this blog post is the first I've heard about the issue, and based on it and reading the Politico article I'd say it's the kind of thing to ask questions about (if Calderone didn't already know that there are a lot of off-the-record list servs around DC like you say, which come to think of it would be a big thing to be ignorant of), but the answers aren't newsworthy. Smoke but no fire.
I just hate seeing "leftists" act like William F Buckley and the National fucking Review. This is why the left has gone to shit, too many damn rich kids and their summer-camp habits brought into the political arena, instead of actual organizing.

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It would of course be the death of the local newspaper, cable TV, and the whole tuned-for-5th-graders media that is propped up by commercials and marketing departments and official spokesmen and pressmen's unions and whatever other infrastructure keeps me from knowing what there really is to be known.

I think I will try to recommend this post to my friends and family, cuz it’s really helpful.

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