Lmao, if the media really thinks most Americans are going to disagree with Obama here, they really are out of touch. I hope they run this clip 500 thousand times. It's not going to have anything like the effect they seem to think it's going to have.

Hell, the only real problem with this statement is that he said 'Bitter' instead of 'really fucking pissed off', which is a much more accurate portrayal of the emotions at play here.

From what I've seen, the 'bitter' comment is whats been getting all the play. It's very unlikely that most people will disagree with the idea that they are bitter and angry about the state of the economy over the last 20 years. Try talking to someone who didn't graduate from college about the future, and time how long it is before they mention that their parents used to have good factory jobs and all they can get is a piece of shit job at wal*mart.

"I'm not really sure what the big deal over Obama's comments in SF is supposed to be"

It's funny how Ezra was politically sharp before 2/5, and is politically dull now.

I wonder what caused that?

I wonder why he's decided there is no market for being politically sharp at the moment?

-----

To answer Ezra's rhetorical confusion, it's that Adlai Stevenson is not a political role model to be emulated.

Reading Obama's explanation/rebutal as opposed to seeing the youtube video gives a totally different emotional response.

What's different? It is apparent that Barak isn't doing political spin but is himself greatly angry about actual conditions.

Most importantly is the crowd reaction: rarely do you see in crowd response a deeply emotional agreement with the statements of a political figure. The crowd response started early in the talk, with nodding heads, then accelerated when he mentioned 'right here' and 'Decatur', and then went ballistic when he said that he was directly in touch with the bitterness of the people about how politics has failed to respond the the real needs of the people.

This is a guy who SHOULD be President because he is capable of talking real straight talk and the people can sense that his honesty and sincerity are real.

Amazing!

soullite, you're assuming that society doesn't have a huge-honking case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Petey: Your response makes me wonder if you are just as out of touch with people's genuine frustration as Clinton and McCain show they are.

We are right at the edge of the movie "Network" moment where people stick their heads out their windows and yell "I'm madder than hell and I won't take it anymore".

It's sad that you can't see this.

Tyro, I'd wager I have a lot more exposure to poor people than most of the rest in here. I know how my family will react to this. I know how my friends will react to this. some of them never even graduated from highschool, very few went to ANY college, let alone harvard or yale. I'm currently trying to scrape together 3000 dollars so I can pay for a dental procedure I need, and wondering if having my teeth fall out in 3-4 years would be worth being able to eat and pay all my bills.

This isn't going to play anything like the media thinks it will.

This video from CNN is pretty extraordinary. The three commentators slam McCain and Clinton pretty hard for going after Obama on this issue. Pretty unusual to see someone in the media actually reject one of these annoying outrage flareups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8dRMofHNs

Petey:
How can a guy who originally supported Edwards not see what Obama is saying here? Your lack of comprehension on this one confounds me.

The danger here isn't that any one "gaffe" is going to sink Obama, its that the media will continue to focus on any little thing Obama says that can be taken out of context and made into a "gaffe", while continuing to give McCain a free pass on everything.
It's the combined weight of neverending media focus on psuedo-scandals that will damage him in the end.

Although that CNN clip is a little ray of sunshine. Not one but THREE newsbots rejecting the premise.

I'm not sure what his objective is, but Petey mostly just seems to go around slamming folks like Ezra and Yglesias (and Obama) these days. Meanwhile, he says he's voting for Nader, and yet his name still links to Edwards' page. Go figure.

CON MAN!

Told you he's a con.

If he thinks this was such a great thing to say, why wasn't it in his normal stump speech in PA??

Why did he hide his comments in a closed meeting of his rich San Francisco donors.

He should go to small town PA and tell those bitter fools to stop clinging to their guns - give'em up. Stop clinging to their churches, scre them churches, look what trouble they got me in and look to what??? OBAMAMANIA! he will take care of their entire lives. Ohh thank you Obama Man, thank you for taking care of me.

""Soullite:
Tyro, I'd wager I have a lot more exposure to poor people than most of the rest in here""

You'd be wrong on my count Soullite, I grew up in small town Pennsylvania. My Mom and Dad had ten kids and my MOm never worked. Dad found work where he could..Of course this was MORE THAN 25 years ago, this was the 60s, the 70s. My life actually improved greatly in the 80s, 90, 2000s..thank you very much.
Buy we were dirt poor; and we never took a government handout, never even thought of it. We relied on oursleves, our families and neighbors and our church.

Yes we owned a gun, and I don't think Obama was gonna come out and shoot the horse when he fell and broke his leg - Dad did that.

Yes, we went to church, and we never thought we'd be better sitting in a government office begging for cheese.

Obama is talking to one group...the takers in our society, those that want a hand out with hard work.

I can tell you in my former home town, this isn't gonne go over well at all.

Ahh, that's WITHOUT hard work...

This was a problem because of what he said about religion. It amounts to the same thing as what Marx said -- that religion is an opiate. Plus, to link it with guns as some kind of redneck phenomenon. It was a dumb, self destructive moment, and one that suggests he is becoming punch drunk from all the adulation. He really shot himself in the foot but good this time. I hope he can recover, and I think throwing the reverend overboard would be a good first move.

How can a guy who originally supported Edwards not see what Obama is saying here? Your lack of comprehension on this one confounds me.

I supported Edwards, too. And you're right, Obama is 100% correct. But that doesn't mean the way he expressed his thoughts (and in San Francisco, of all places!!) wasn't politically stupid. It was. This is a fairly major gaffe. Or at least it would be if his name were Hillary Clinton. Given the media's infatuation with Obama, I suspect it probably will blow over quickly.

Anonymous is clearly not bitter. Nope. Just a happy-go-lucky sort. Clearly.

At this point, Americans who aren't bitter are idiots. I'm not sure why Obama's opponents are so eager to make it clear that they think Americans are idiots.

Why did he hide his comments in a closed meeting of his rich San Francisco donors.

...

Obama is talking to one group...the takers in our society, those that want a hand out with hard work.

I detect a bit of bitterness here when it comes to Obama's donors and many of his supporters. They're all "takers", eh? Idiot.

Too-stupid-to-use-a-pseudonym actually touches on exactly what Obama is talking about. Boomers-and-olders have a much less bitter attitude and will tell you how back in their day, things looked bright because the government rolled out so many initiatives that made america a more innovative, advanced place and spread the benefits to everyone. Too-stupid-to-use-a-pseudonym is pissed because he feels like he got shafted and that no one cared. Driving home the exact point that Obama is making.

Latest FaBlog: The American People

Looks like Marc Ambinder is has a full time job telling us exactly what Obama meant to say; is not in fact what he actually said.

Is Obama highering him to explain his remarks since we bitter clingy, racists are too stoopid to figur dem outt??

You guys dont get it. Whether what he said is factually correct is absolutely irrelevant.

To win the presidency, you have to make people feel good and positive about America in general and america's future in particular. I know, its sappy BS, but thats the reality in this country.

Obama could just as easily gone out and said "most americans are stupid, hateful bigots who still harbor at least some modicum of racism in their hearts." He'd be absolutely correct in this assertion, but anybody who doesnt think that would sink his presidential bid is a fool.

Rightly or wrongly, you cant say that stuff about America and expect to win. Maybe someday we'll be in an era when you can really tell the truth about everythign and not sugarcoat it with pseudo-patriotism, but we DO NOT LIVE IN THAT ERA YET and this will cost Obama dearly.

Prediction: Clintons lead in PA goes back up to double digits by the middle of next week

Tyro--

"Too-stupid-to-use-a-pseudonym actually touches on exactly what Obama is talking about. Boomers-and-olders have a much less bitter attitude and will tell you how back in their day, things looked bright because the government rolled out so many initiatives that made america a more innovative, advanced place and spread the benefits to everyone. Too-stupid-to-use-a-pseudonym is pissed because he feels like he got shafted and that no one cared. Driving home the exact point that Obama is making."

Exactly how dense are you? Did you even read where the one you are calling stupid said this:

"Of course this was MORE THAN 25 years ago, this was the 60s, the 70s. My life actually improved greatly in the 80s, 90, 2000s..thank you very much."

Were you too stupid to realize he is a boomer?

What's fascinating about Obama's statement is that on the one hand he talks about the relentless disappointment the working class has faced and in the next breath speaks of the their "antipathy" toward trade agreements as a way to vent their "bitterness". Now this thought, had it stood alone, would have been fine. But Obama lumps it in with other 'negatives' such as clinging to guns and God, antipathy toward others who are different from themselves and anti-immigration sentiments.

Is he trying to tell us that anti-trade agreement feelings are bad? The working class has suffered greatly from trade agreements. Did he even know what he said? Obama is a free-trader---he rarely uses the term 'fair trade'. He showed some very poor judgement in his comments politically, that's for certain. But I marvel at how this "trade agreement" comment has gone unnoticed in general reporting. This to me, says much. It tells us what he may be thinking.

So let's turn Obama logic on its head. If the Federal government steps in and provides all these Pennsylanians good jobs with free healthcare, they won't feel the need to own guns, thus we can ban them. They won't feel the need to have a religion and go to church ..since that's really governments purpose, and they won't mind a few million illegal aliens camping on their doorsteps so we can open the border.

Now I understand this Obama quote:

"I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God in the same way that Pastor Ron and all of you are instruments of God. .....We're going to keep on praising together. I am confident that we can create a Kingdom right here on Earth."

Perhaps Marc Ambinder will explain that comment as well..

"We are right at the edge of the movie "Network" moment where people stick their heads out their windows and yell 'I'm madder than hell and I won't take it anymore.'"

JimPortland,
we are already there, but your candidate is not the one we are opening our windows for:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kcdnlNZg2iM

let's see:
the elderly
women
gays
small towners

who's the next stop on the insult train?

Were you too stupid to realize he is a boomer?

No, I am simply smart enough to understand basic arithmetic. The boomer generation is defined by those born from 1946 and to 1964-1966. Mr. too-stupid-to-use-a-pseudonym is clearly referring to a childhood spent in the 60s and 70s which makes him an early-stage Gen Xer (America's most Republican generation) or most most a very-very late-stage boomer of the Barack Obama variety.

He's saying Pennsylvanians, in his finest judgement, are HATERS, they hate people not like them, because they don't have a job, their racist little haters too, and because the government hasn't handed them enough, their bitter, racist gun-toting haters..just like white women are typically racist and hate black folk.

Why can't the haters just get over it and admit you're a hater and allow Obamamania to heal you??

To win the presidency, you have to make people feel good and positive about America in general and america's future in particular

Waitwaitwait... first Obama was the president who had nothing to talk about other than empty talk of "hope" and "unity" and mindless optimism that doesn't comport with reality, and now he's a negative nelly who does nothing but talk about how bad things are? Cripes, the anti-Obama faction really needs to learn to get their talking points straight.

Look, out with it: you just don't like Obama and will come up with a random set of talking points, whatever he does, to defend that position. Fine. But be up front about that. Stop trying to be an armchair political strategist with your finger on the pulse of the electorate. You're not.

"... first Obama was the president who had nothing to talk about other than empty talk of "hope" and "unity" and mindless optimism that doesn't comport with reality, and now he's a negative nelly who does nothing but talk about how bad things are?"

Precisely. The reason both are true is that his campaign has never actually stood FOR anything; it's only always been positioned as a reaction against Bush and against Clinton. The strategy is to lump Bush and Clinton together and to make all Bush haters Clinton haters as well. The problem is, in an unguarded moment, he made the amateurish mistake of insulting one group of voters to another.

p.s. Pretty funny that, in your zeal to appear clever, Tyro, you keep having to type "too-stupid-to-use-a-pseudonym instead of anonymous. LOL

The reason both are true is that his campaign has never actually stood FOR anything

Well, that's actually not true, so it's hard to say how the rest of your comment is relevant. However, if you start from a false premise, you prove anything.

still waiting, what? a year for what Obama's campaign stands for...and try to eplain it in words not mentioning Clintons. Thanks.

prove your case

still waiting, what? a year for what Obama's campaign stands for

Hey, read up. I'm not your tutor.

The anti-Obama faction can't get their stories straight, because they just don't like him. Nothing wrong with that, but they're woefully incapable of advocating for their own beliefs, and their ravings degenerate into, "He's just a happy-talk guy who talks about 'hope'... no... wait, he's a negative nelly who Hates America™." If YOU had any beliefs of your own, diffanon, you wouldn't be making such idiotic arguments.

I like Obama, but can't defend him on everything.

If his campaign were solely to move the democratic party beyond the Clintons, DAYENU

http://www.obamascreensavers.com

Oh, come on. You all can't be that stupid. Surely at one point or another, you've run into a false dichotomy.

Bad: out of work, bitter, clinging to guns, religion, anti-free trade, and anti-immigrant thoughts.

Good: employed, happy, no desire for guns and religion, pro-immigrant, pro-free trade.

Apart from the major insult to gun owners and believers, he's outed himself as a liar on gun rights and free trade. How much worse could it get?

Hillary supporters apparently think that lower income people LOVE being shit all over by this system. They think they can't get enough of having to work more than 1 job, because the only jobs avaliable are shitty part time jobs. They Adore not being able to send their kids to college.

And how dare that horrible black man, Barack Obama, say otherwise. Doesn't he know better?

from swimming freestyle:

"This video is exactly how Obama should have raised the issue: In the environment these voters live and with an appropriate anger. Rural working class voters have gotten the shaft. They have every right to be frustrated and even bitter about what's happened to them.

Obama now finds himself having to address the issue defensively, Unfortunately, the issue will now likely be obscured by the hysterical anti-Obama rants by the Clintons and McCains. Obama gave them that gift when he spoke in San Francisco last weekend.

http://swimmingfreestyle.typepad.com

I wonder how much the people who say 'you can't every say anything bad about our system' make.

I'm willing to bet anything it's a hell of a lot more than most Americans do. There's plenty bad to say about America, land of the low paying, part time jobs. None of it has dick to do with the country itself, and everything to do with the scumbag elites pretending to be common men running it, and running their mouths in here.

Lmao, you people really are clueless. Maybe you should take stock in your socio-economic positions and acknowledge that you don't actually know dick about what normal people think.

The more you play this remark, the more angry people are going to get at the media elites who are pretending not to understand what was said.

Dear Clinton Supporters

You are so deranged that you hate Obama merely for defeating Clinton. You do not hate him because he doesn't care about poor people. You don't hate him because he's a closet Republican. You don't hate him because he's inexperienced. Hell, most of you don't hate him because he's black. You hate him because he has won.

Please, for the good of the country, move on and stop flagging stupid BS like this. There will be other elections, those of us who back candidates like Obama and almost always watch them lose can attest to that.

what's "demeaning" is that Hillary Clinton thinks people are stupid -
that she will become president and the clock will go back to before 9/11, to before the internet boom and to before she was an exceptionally wealthy out of touch washington insider

when the Clinton campaign is sending around talking points and literature from the Republican National Commitee and John McCain's campaign you know this democratic nominating contest has gone on far too long –

"What's the Matter with Kansas?" by Thomas Frank questioned why citizens constantly vote against their own best interests - and that is exactly what Sen Obama was saying –

What;'s the Matter with America?

The Ciintons and the McCain are in the top 1% of wealth in this country; the Clintons are the champions of free trade, McCain believes in all those tax cuts for the wealthy and the media is going to allow them to portray Obama as an "elitist"??

What the matter with this country—

"You hate him because he has won."

bwa hah hah hah!

"Hey, read up. I'm not your tutor."

duh, you have to know something in order to teach it. Still selling that line that, if they were wiser, those not supporting Obama would? Like candidate like supporter I see.

There are two kinds of Bill Clinton supporters: those who thought that his advocacy of the Defense of Marriage Act was a brilliant piece of triangulation that got the "right" kind of voters on his side, those those who thought it was a tragic sell-out that, even if it was necessary, was a temporary while we licked our wounds and got ready to smash the Republicans once and for all for their cultural demagoguery and cut off the balls of such demagoguery once and for all.

The former group has gone on to support Hillary and the latter group has gone on to support Obama. The people here ranting against Obama think that demagoguery is a feature, not a bug. People support Clinton because they think she can work within and master the patterns of demagoguery. People support Obama because they know he's going to go up to the Republican demagogues and cut off their balls.

Still selling that line that, if they were wiser, those not supporting Obama would?

Show me, specifically, where I said that. If you don't know what Obama stands for, it's only because you had to tell yourself that because you already opposed him. I'm not hear to tutor you in what Obama stands for. You can do it yourself. I'm only here to calling you an ignorant liar for saying that Obama doesn't stand for anything, because people who say that are ignorant liars. My job isn't to make you less ignorant, my job is to condemn your ignorance as immoral and dishonest.

I agree with Obama 100 percent on this. I don't understand the gaffe part except that its an i nside the beltway thought process of how us normal folks think. Yeah we don't believe the politicians regarding the economic issues. big surprise. And wow horrible gaffe to point it out.

The media bias shoe really pinches when it's on the other foot, doesn't it?

Anyway, for what it's worth, I agree. What he said is uncontroversial in context and accurately reflects small town attitudes in much of America --- certainly in the small town where I grew up.

He chose his words badly. It was a rookie mistake. Because, you see, he's a rookie.

The media bias shoe really pinches when it's on the other foot, doesn't it?

Anyway, for what it's worth, I agree. What he said is uncontroversial in context and is a point many have made. But he's the great uniter, right?

He chose his words badly. It was a rookie mistake. If he'd positioned himself as someone who was prepared to take on social injustice, it might have made sense for him to say this. But he's the candidate that was going to bring us all together again, right? He can't afford to sound as if he thinks some voters are more equal than others.

It deserves attention because it's simply one more instance of the inconsistency between his public 'brand' and what he actually has on the shelves.

I don't hate him, but I don't think he's ready to run the country (yet).

So, let me get this clear- because Obama has moved to the left, he is to be condemned for it?

"People support Obama because they know he's going to go up to the Republican demagogues and cut off their balls."

caught this by Kate Harding over at Shakesville (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/04/its-time-to-get-obama-skeptical.html, and I think it sums things up nicely:

"Sing it with me, kids: Obama is not a fucking progressive.

Progressives do not praise Reagan and Bush, or argue that religious politicians can't be expected to leave their beliefs at the door just because of that whole separation of church and state thing. Progressives do not believe Bush hasn't quite met the standard of "grave, intentional breaches to presidential authority." Progressives don't talk about solving the "Social Security crisis"--prior to his kidnapping, even Josh Marshall believed that. And hell, prior to that statement, Obama believed that.) Progressives do not praise gay men who do them the kindness of not "proselytizing." Progressives do not ally themselves with vicious homophobes. Progressives do not support an immigration plan sponsored by John McCain, which does not include benefits or amnesty for undocumented immigrants. Progressives do not make it a high priority to demonstrate respect for people who do not believe in women's bodily autonomy. Progressives do not brag about their ability to attract Republican voters. Progressives do not baldly state that they are unwilling to spend political capital on progressive issues.

Are we clear on this now? Obama is not a fucking progressive."

As for your job, Tyro:
("My job isn't to make you less ignorant, my job is to condemn your ignorance as immoral and dishonest"), your job is, therefore, a dishonest one. To condemn? Like I said, like candidate like supporter.

Well, to be honest Anonymous. Tou hate him because he's black. A long history of racist comments shows that. But most of Hillary's supporters are just pissed at him because he beat their candidate. Not because of deep policy disagreements or because they can't stand to see the party in the hands of another faction. I could understand those reasons, even if I wouldn't agree with them. I can't understand hating Obama just because he won against your candidate. He's done nothing so terrible as to warrant that. I hope time will bring them to a point thats beyond their disappointment.

You, Anonymous, will not.

Another WORM site?
If even one PA. voter is insulted, then, yes, actually this is a newsworthy story.

Tou?

obama speaks the truth.

would someone tell me please, how people can look at bill and hillary clinton and the tales of their recent fortunes, and tell me how anyone can believe that they are feeling the pain of all of those "optimistic and resilient" people who are out of jobs?
opportunistic predators.
the destructive lunacy of it all.

Michelle Obamas comment about being proud of the country in her adult life pretty goes right along with what her husband apparently thinks of the people in this country.

Who could be proud of a white, racist, gun toting, religion crutched bunch of haters anyway?

Florry said:

"The danger here isn't that any one "gaffe" is going to sink Clinton, its that the media will continue to focus on any little thing Clinton says that can be taken out of context and made into a "gaffe", while continuing to give Obama a free pass on everything.
It's the combined weight of neverending media focus on psuedo-scandals that will damage her in the end."

Huh? You mean Florry said Obama and not Clinton?

Never mind.

I'm a little confused by Barack's statement. My family came to this continent in 1732. They settled in Pennsylvania. They built churches and owned guns. They have been going to church and owning guns for 270 years.

So we've just been waiting for Obama to arrive to deliver us from our gun owning, church going ways?

"obama speaks the truth."

which version?

anonymous, only a little chicken shit like you would ignore an entire post and focus on an obvious typo.

But then, what do you expect from a racist but cowardice?

It was the only part worth responding to.

AND it was bolded
LOL

I like the fact that Obama stood by his statements because he is absolutely correct.

He admitted today that it was not inartful but he is right and I hope he uses the last 30 seconds of he comback in Indiana as a commercial. McCain is a hypocrite on this issue and the republicans know it very well...

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/9e163793-59da-4b2c-88ae-be7f8f4ec09d

Abandon this "let's all unite, we'll get the independents & the republicans to vote for us & everybody'll be happy" bullshit & start doing it more like this. CLASS WAR! They've been waging it against us for far too long, i wanna see this guy fighting back.

"they cling to...anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

See, the only problem I have here is that--as some astute observers here point out--Obama suggests that Pennslyvanians', many of whom lost their jobs to free trade, are wrong and using trade as an excuse.

Well, what is it? Is opposing "free trade" wrong? That would seem to be the indication. Something, frankly, I have a problem with. The people of Pennslyvania have every damn reason to hate the "free trade" policies that liquidate their lives. To say otherwise is truly condescending.

Disclosure:
Before the inevitable howls of the Obama crowd, I do not support Hillary Clinton. Truth and politics do not exist within the prism of Obama-Clinton, whereby all opinions and truth are constrained by what candidate you choose.

Soullite, the clearist racist comment in this campaign came from Obama.

The clearist racist mentor in this campaign is Obamas' mentor.

The clearist candididate to stand up for a known racist was Obama.

I guess maybe its his typically racist white half that makes him do it....

anonymous

is a clearist like a purist?
or is clearest like purest?

I noticed that the Hillary campaign YouTube of her admonishment of Obama has gotten 4 thousand views.

The Obama campaign YouTube of his response has gotten 200 thousand views.

If viral counts for anything, Obama voters can feel a little bit better at this point.

Can anyone provide some clarity to me on the question I posed before. Namely, was Obama suggesting that it is backward or wrong to oppose "free trade?"

That doesn't seem to be his point Jeff. His points seems to be what the matter with kansas. If I am understanding him, and his follow ups suggest I am right, it's a critic of why voters dont' vote for Democrats. Namely- they don't vote for us because we haven't stood up for them on the economic issues, so they are left to vote only their social values whatever they are rather than their economic ones. I've been told by BTD that this is a "positive" spin on what Obama is saying. That maybe true. But your interpretation should be understood as such rather than as a fact of what he is saying as well. This is the problem here. THe inartful part allows for misinterpretation,b ut it doesn't prove exactly what you wrote- at least not from what I am getting of everything he has said in its entirety. For example- it doesn't really make sense for him to talk about voting values issues if his goal was to talk about free trade. It also doesn't make much sense to only frame this as some are doing as only about PA. The first comment clearly needed clarification. IHe gave it, and it does fit my interpretation- I think- more than it does the 'he's elist' or 'he's against economic populism" as BTD claims. Maybe he is- but I don't see how one comes to this conclusion again basically from a frame that sounds very much like Whats The Matter with Kansas.

I noticed that the Hillary campaign YouTube of her admonishment of Obama has gotten 4 thousand views.

The Obama campaign YouTube of his response has gotten 200 thousand views.

If viral counts for anything, Obama voters can feel a little bit better at this point.

Posted by: Ara Rubyan | April 12, 2008 7:40 PM

A litle bit better about WTF?

Guess all those bitter rural folks were busy cleaning their guns or a warshin' their youngins' afore church tomorrow and quite unable to click on the YouTube pap that seems to be a barometer for some like yourself.

"Clinging to religion" is going to prove excellent fodder for the McCain campaign juxtaposed with Obama's 20 yr relationship with Trinity Church.

It was a gaffe, and it has legs--even if what Obama said was true.

Obama's problem with the white working class isn't race: it's class. Obama is so posh and so perfect, with his perfect wife and perfect family, all beautiful and perfectly dressed. His bowling episode was perhaps entertaining, but by making this remark he reveals how he views working class people as Other--those embittered blue-collar rednecks who are into religion and guns. Not like us latte-drinking liberals.

That's why Obama draws a majority of college grads and, by 2 to 1, individuals with advanced degrees, but loses the majority of high school grads and those with some college. This is a class divide. The upper crust identifies with him; the lower crust feel patronized, resentful and threatened because this guy is so, so elite, so beautiful and so cool.

He'll be nominated and I'll vote for him. But I find him repellent for these reasons--and I doubt that I'm alone in this.

Akiason,

I get what you are saying, sort of. That said, while I agree these things can get lost in translation, so to speak, and his response was decent, I think the general problem I have is why trade is included.

As you say "it doesn't really make sense for him to talk about voting values issues if his goal was to talk about free trade."

I agree, his purpose was not to talk about trade; however, he included "anti-trade sentiment" as things people "cling" to "as a way to explain their frustrations."

My point here is two fold:

1)To suggest that clinging to "anti-trade" is a rational and positive reaction to economic plight. It should be something they "cling" to, and thus it is quite different from guns and god and should not be included in his list. Voting based on anger about trade policy is something Thomas Frank--and I--believe is something people have not be voting on, and should. Whereas god, gays, and guns are a the distractions that they often do. In short, clinging to trade is quite different from the others and should not be listed.

2)More ominously, when Obama mentions trade in this fashion, it can't help but raise my concern about him considering his coterie of econ advisors (Liebman, Cutler and Goolsbee) who support privitization of social security (Liebman), the notion of high healthcare costs as a positive sign for the economy(cutler) and "free trade" (Goolsbee). As such, these comments--lumping anti-trade sentiment into the notion of values voters, which is an incorrect comparison--suggests someone who may (shock) agree strongly with his advisors. This is a problem to me, it suggests, to me, that Obama is very much like Bill Clinton, preaching the word of good governance and reconciliation while diving for the center on policy.

Disclosure:
I do not support Hillary Clinton but believe that people should evaluate candidate's with an eye to critical scrutiny.

H.E. Barber, are you psychic or something? Let me guess, you thought Wright would do him in. Or/and Rezko. Basically, you've thought(hoped) he was doomed from the beginning.

It isn't going to happen. Very few people actually disagree with this statement. To a degree that people will try to make this an issue, it won't work. I know it can be maddening when dealing with a candidate you don't like, but charisma can let you skate on a lot of things.

Jeff, I think some of you are so terrified at the thought of what the wicked Republicans might do that you've nuetered yourselves.

Stand your ground, pick a fight, show that you know how to lead. Theres nothing more to a Presidential campaign than that. You overthink and it prevents you from seeing what a simple game the Republicans have been playing all these years. It's never the content of these attacks that cripple our candidates, it's how they react to them.

"Jeff, I think some of you are so terrified at the thought of what the wicked Republicans might do that you've nuetered yourselves."

First, you misspelled it, and b) when did Dowd start writing your copy?

Jeff

I assume when I make a point that people have read the book to which I am referring. Here's the thing-- you miss the point still. He's not saying that these issues of social values aren't unrelated to economic issues. He's making the point that they are. Assuming I am understanding him, he is saying that people vote their social values because they don't see a diference between the parties on the economic values. Do you see my point? That it's not a matter his personal views, but instead about how others view the issues in question. Whether or not you are right on trade, or what he thinks on trade is irrelevant to this discussion. People have first got to listen to you. That's why folks like BTD do the party a disservice. He talks a good game, but he could careless about the economic issues. So he's spinning what Obama says. he maybe right, but we can't say that based on this statement. this statement says the opposite of what detractors like BTD says. it says the opposite of what you say. Do you get that? It says that the economic issues are obscured by the social issues because they (the voters) don't trust the Democrats on the economic issues. Why don't they trust us? Probably because we are too similar, and not because of the specifics of your statement.

Look, his argument as he presents it poorly stated. I am not even sure I am right. I just know that your interpretation seems less right given what he said. That's my only point.

I do agree with Soullite (yes suprise to me too) that you are too ready to worry about the GOP. Fuck the GOP. Fuck what they think. Fuck how they will react. Leadership is about meaning what you say, and saying what you mean. It's how you get the visceral vote rather than the pundits.

BY the way as a gay man, I follow the gay press. this isn't new to me. He's been saying this in regards to gay issues too. It's been reported on sites like towleroad.com or queerty (can not remember which) that he said the GOP uses issues like gay marriage as wedge issues to avoid the economic issues. That really the gay marriage issue affects very few lives. The gays who are for clinton or who are log cabin types were in an uproar and using the quote then too to claim that he was saying that he was against gay rights when in fact his position on the gay rights issues are the same as clinton (both by the way I think aren't protecting my rights enough but thats another discussion). The point here is that I think he's testing a new theme of economic populism to reach out the the very voters that people say he needs to reach out to. He did it inartfully here as he did with the gay marriage point- but at least he's trying to change in the right direction versus clinton who has adopted here basically a GOP talking point. I don't think that's who she is, but I do think it's a bit of desperation to use a c omment that she overall basically agrees with even as she pretends she does not.

I must have missed it, were alot of Democrats in Pennsylvania voting for Bush??

Because as I read the results, and granted I did not go to Harvard, but both Al Gore and John Kerry BEAT Bush in Pennsylvania.

The state has a Democratic Governor and Democratic Senator except for the dinosaur Republican for life Specter. There are 11 Democratic House members and only 8 Republican.

So what exactly is Obama talking about, the people he is berating aren't voting Republican, they have voted Democratic every election.

So is he saying Democratic politicians have been playing the gun, religion and hate cards???

That appears to be his implication, because Bush certainly never carried PA.

"Can anyone provide some clarity to me on the question I posed before. Namely, was Obama suggesting that it is backward or wrong to oppose "free trade?""

It looks to me that he's suggesting exactly that and he needs to clarify how he thinks about that. I think his Austan Goolsbee moment is as good an explanation as any other for why he LOST OHIO. The tragedy is Pennsylvanians voting for Hillary "NAFTA" Clinton as an alternative, while she distracts from the economy (where she is actually WEAK)by going on and on about how Obama insulted their religion. (Just like any Republican). If he's sincere about economic issues he needs to go address them directly. He could also, if he has any balls, attack Clinton I administration policies.

"Voting based on anger about trade policy is something Thomas Frank--and I--believe is something people have not be voting on, and should."

They *can't* vote on it because the plutocratic wings of BOTH parties support it-- they make big bucks (personally!) in global financial markets.

For Obama to be a real alternative to Clinton (and the Republicans), he needs to figure out how to offer something else. (And quick). Otherwise, there's no real point. White working class PA can just as readily vote Clinton, women have as much a right to vote their gender as black people have a right to vote Obama, and I'm sure there are men who can just as easily turn around later and vote McCain.

I myself am tired of a plutocratic Democratic Party, and I am tired of their own participation in the culture wars in support of plutocracy.

Maybe 8 more years of Republican rule is what DLC voters really need. I can gurantee the liberal upper middle class them and their ways won't come out of that intact either.

Obama needs to pick a side.

What is the deal with all this focus on him saying it in San Francisco. The irony, McCain checked into the Ritz Carlton hotel in San Francisco two weeks ago for a fund raiser just after coming back from another fund raiser in Pebble Beach. And we're calling Obama elite because he was in Pacific Heights!? This is insane and completely petty.
But he's right regardless of where he says it. Working class america is pissed off (bitter, angry, mad, furious, pick your favorite.) They're the ones we always focus on during elections and ONLY during elections. We focus on issues we know they turn to, guns and religion, only when it's convenient to do so and then we turn our backs on them. They're angry. They are bitter. They keep going back to these issues because they are important to them, but we always say how much we care about them and their issues during an election or primary and then leave them behind.
Let's wake up here.

Soullite:

I fear you did not read my post. I am not talking about Republicans. I am more than willing to stand my ground, and I think its about time Democrats did as well. What I am saying is that I do not think Obama is very progressive on core economic issues (Clinton likely even less so). That is my main concern. Im sure you disagree, however, it seems you reflexively support Obama, which is fine. I support someone when they truly speak to my concerns.

Akiason,

I agree with Obama's idea, and yours, that voters have often for republicans because they see no difference beteween the parties(the democrats are not bold enough in demarcating their differences with Republicans). That is my point! As such, I think Obama should vociferously oppose corporate "free trade" deals, dismantle wall street and big finance, raise taxes considerably on wealth and so forth

Further, what I have been saying, is that I do not think that Obama is very progressive on trade.
Thus, when he mentions being "anti-trade" as something you "cling" to "explanation" for your problems, that, to me, pretty much unambiguously says that you do not believe being anti-free trade is healthy. Its like opposing immigration, which--he believes--you should not. I know that you have another reading of this that suggests he is Mr. anti-free trade. i do not see it. Even so, i dont care. When you take your economic cues from Cutler, Liebman, and Goolsbee, you have a problem.

....as something you "cling" to as an "explanation" for your problems....

I often do not check my work after I write it. Sorry.

Oh, I agree he's not progressive enough Jeff-- on multiple issues. The same is true of Clinton. They are good at "feeling our pain" but not so good at doing anything that would actually help. This is what makes the public cynical about us. In actual action, we end up being the GOP lite. Various supporters justfiy it for whatever reason- none of which I think reflects where the American people are. I think all the candidates- GOP or Democrat are somewhat out of touch with the realities of our society right now. Even professional jobs are leaving this country. Education isn't the solution because ultimately its about jobs and wages.

Akaison:

Agreed.

In fact, its funny you should mention the white collar thing, I was just at a meeting discussing the whole H-2b nonsense. I just hope we can start bringing lawyers, doctors, consultants, and business people here on temporary work visas. That would be nice. And, oh yeah, maybe temporary work visas for politicians. We could certainly find more brilliant (and cheap) and helpful people in other countries than the current bunch we have.

As a lifelong (61) Democrat (moderate) I fear the far left wing (latte liberals with gold gold plated health care plans) are taking us all down the road to defeat again.

Nothing could be worse for the party than to downplay the significance of obamas remark in SF. Add to that his babies are punishment and his 20 year association with Jeremiah (hate America) Wright.

Hillary Clinton is the best path to the White House

the irony of course is that the very people who are supposed to be offended by this- aren't. the one who are- aren't a part of the class in question. this seems to be a reflection of the posters and American people more so than the comments. I believe this is really just guilt based on class. Just an observation to explain why the class in question isn't offended but everyone else is offended for them.

First, Ezra, it is worth point out that the media has given Obama now wall to wall coverage for his endless efforts to explain his comments, not the 3 mins and 44 seconds you predicted.

Your paranoia about an obviously liberal press's likely readiness to do in the man who has in fact become its darling is of a piece with the paranoia of the rich SF liberals who could actually buy into Obama's demonizing of the rural middle class Other as a group of yahoos unwilling to do the hard class analysis I guess you have to go to Harvard to master.

Obama's efforts to explain himself these past few days have taken the form, as usual with him, of taking all the rest of us to task for misunderstanding his profound message and only apologizing for not talking down to us more carefully.

Spare me. I was around SDS in the Sixties. I remember when the concept of "false consciousness" was born in the fires of SDS snobbery, matches supplied by Herbert Marcuse and other frauds. Even then it was clear enough that the concept contained its own internal contradiction, which could only be papered over by the unbelievably condescending assumption that your side alone had somehow escaped that trap by virtue of its transcendant ability to know the truth.

Always the justificaation for vanguards, which is exactly what "we are the ones we've been waiting for" means.

There is no way for Obama to "clarify" his "clinging" remarks, therefore, that will not perch him even higher up in the spot above us all that he already claims to hold. Give it up and move on. Obama has probablhy lost his election already. Better prepare for the next one.

ironically obama's numbers are going up. so as people keep trying to turn this into a gaffe it maybe backfiring. i dont so much care about obama, but i am glad to see the american people are relatively self aware enough to know how they feel and not be ashamed of it because the pundit class thinks they should not feel emotions like anger over what's been happening in this country.

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セックスフレンド

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