I wonder what it says about me, then, that female companions of mine have been catcalled in my presence.

However, I have witnessed it much more frequently directed towards women on their own - there's at least some truth to this.

Well, here's an actual honest-to-God serious question, from a guy who's interested in flirting with women he finds attractive, but doesn't want to cross the line into abusive behavior. I get the power-issue in catcalling, but Catherine's post links to a previous post of hers, which complains of random guys on the street:

a) encouraging her to smile

b) another woman being the subject of some awkward flirting

So where, exactly, does the line get drawn. To me, both of those examples don't seem like they involve the same power-balance issue, but maybe that's because I'm a guy who doesn't get it. But what constitutes acceptable flirting, and what constitutes unacceptable harassment?

It's utterly disgusting.

Wow! There's so much else out there for your disgusting pleasure than this....perhaps you could blog about the beatings women suffer in Arab countries from perfect strangers for not dressing "correctly".

True El Viajero there are much more disgusting things happening to women around the globe.

As for catcalling, I don't see why a guy would do it. It is not an effective way to get the attention of a woman you are interested in.

It never ceases to amaze me that people actually do this. Cat-calling is just pathetic. It's nothing but a really lame attempt to express dominion over a woman. It's not like it really works on anything but the most pathetic females, and then, since it's done by the most pathetic males, it's really water seeking it's own level.

Flirting, however, is almost always acceptable initially, provided it's tactful and tasteful. The only caveat is that it's not acceptable when there's a noticeable difference in power levels of the individual (e.g. Adult/Child, Boss/Employee, Government official/citizen.). But otherwise, thats just how relationships start.

jbou, the point isn't to "get the attention of a woman you're intersted in". The point of catcalling is to objectify a woman and reinforce your ability to threaten and intimidate them, and to demonstrate to other men your ability to do this.

And El Viajero, when CNN posts a story entitled, "Religiously-motivated beat-downs of 'shamefully dressed' women: creepy or compliment?" then I fully expect Ezra et al too post something denouncing the stupidity and offensiveness of the question.

El Viajero, that's like saying we shouldn't criticize Bush because Stalin or whoever was so much worse. The existence of worse behavior doesn't mean the merely bad behavior isn't worth calling out.

Thanks, Ezra.

@DJAnyReason (and the others who always show up in threads and compare catcalling to flirting) - telling a stranger on the street to smile is just plain bossy and annoying. Who tells a perfect stranger who's minding their own business how to behave? Its weird.

Also, the difference between flirting and harassment is that flirting is reciprocal. Pretty easy. In my experience it generally involves striking up a conversation of mutual interest, along with some smiling and ingratiating body language. But if its going anywhere, its mutual. If you feel like you can't read the situation, its probably best to err on the side of caution. Its very strange how this topic seems to throw many people into a frenzy of non-comprehension.

But what constitutes acceptable flirting, and what constitutes unacceptable harassment?

I'm a guy too, but I'd say approaching someone out of the blue or not makes a big difference. I wouldn't suggest sticking to Victorian propriety until the third date or whatever, but outside of really obvious situations like a singles bar or a Spring Break party, I can't think of a single situation where you could start with innuendo within 30 seconds of meeting someone. Even if the only thing you know about someone is that she looks great in a revealing sundress, talking about the weather as a lead-in to it seems better than saying "wow, you look great in that."

But my dating life is pretty boring, so you might not want to take my advice.

Also, by the time I finish writing this it will probably be too late, but please ignore El V., everyone.

I see this all the time, especially in my neighborhood (Bed-Stuy). Guys seem to think it's okay to harass women as they go by. It makes me uncomfortable to know that my girlfriend (who I live with) has to deal with that when she goes out without me in the neighborhood. But, as Ezra said, it never happens when I'm around.

It seems to be more common when there's a group of guys just hanging out, whether it's construction workers or a bunch of guys hanging out outside the bodega. It just strikes me as very sleezy, with a little tinge of threat thrown in, for good measure.

The saddest part of this article, to me, is the woman who says "Yeah, it's objectifying and all, but you know, if I walked down the street and didn't have men looking me up and down and catcalling, I'd think, 'Boy, I must really be getting old and dumpy.' "

She doesn't say "I enjoy it, and find it flattering," she's opposed to it. And yet she's been so thoroughly socialized that she bases part of he self-worth on whether or not she's being abused. It's pretty sad when we have a situation where people are taught to need harassment and abuse in order to feel attractive.

Cyrus, you don't really have to be very direct like that if it makes you uncomfortable. Just strike up a normal conversation, most women will realize why you're doing it and find a way to make it known if it's welcome or not before too long.

As a rule of thumb, if someone you don't know starts a conversation from you, they probably want something from you. They will usually make themselves clear before too long. If they don't seem to want anything but to talk to you, it's probably because what they want is you.

I've seen it plenty. Seems about the worst way to pick up women.

Cyrus, you don't really have to be very direct like that if it makes you uncomfortable. Just strike up a normal conversation, most women will realize why you're doing it and find a way to make it known if it's welcome or not before too long.

Oh, sure, I know banal small talk isn't the one single way to introduce yourself. And as far as actually meeting people goes, I'm not as inept as this makes it sound. But DJAnyReason asked how to avoid harassment when it seems like it could be a borderline case, and off the top of my head, a 30 second rule seemed as good as any.

It is the worst way, Christian, but that's only part of it. I suspect that most guys have no notion that it will work. As mentioned, the purpose is to elicit a win-win response. 'If you smile, I'm a cool guy. If you don't smile, you're a bitch.'

The 'Smile, it can't be that bad' is what really pisses me off. I heard of a woman, whose Dad had just died, hearing that when getting out of subway stop. She told the guy, 'Well, my dad just died, so it really is that bad.'

This whole article is confusing.

To "catcall" is to express derision or disapproval -- see the American Heritage Dictionary at http://www.bartleby.com/61/72/C0157200.html

Do you mean "wolf whistle"? That's a rising and falling whistle that is meant to indicate approval.

What TKD said. I'm in my mid-50s, and I've never heard 'catcall' mean anything other than the American Heritage Dictionary definition, as in "he retreated to the dugout under an avalanche of boos and catcalls."

So what do the discussants here mean by 'catcall'?

Christian, it's not done to pick up women. It's done to humiliate and intimidate them. If they wanted to pick up women, they go to the usual places to pick up women. Bars, Clubs, Churches, and the supermarket. They wouldn't hang out with a pack of people (the surest way to ward of members of the opposite sex is to travel in packs) and howl obscenities at passersby.

This is something I don't understand either. It's just ugly. I used to see a lot of it in Adams Morgan when I lived there -- never to anyone with whom I was walking, which is good. I don't think I would have reacted well.

As for the catcall question, I recall the Elvis Costello lyric for the song "Beyond Belief:

"All the laddies catcall and wolf whistle . . . "

I've got to believe that Elvis knows of what he speaks.

More importantly -- l-t c

Are you hopping on the scooter and going to hear that young rapscallion Yglesias at Politics and Prose on Sunday? I hope to be there -- Southwest Airlines willing -- with my tin foil hat firmly in place and ask a question with at least a five minute preface about my own self as seems to be the fashion.

But what constitutes acceptable flirting, and what constitutes unacceptable harassment?

To quote The Queen of Soul: R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

Men catcalling, hooting, and hollering at women is not showing appreciation, it's degrading. They treat the object of their attention as nothing but a life support system for breasts--not as a human being.

I've found the best way to elicit smiles from people is to smile at them.

I don't know about the other women on this blog, but i have to say that I have never actually felt threatened or humiliated by men whistling/hollering at me. It's annoying and stupid, but I don't see any need to feel intimidated by it. If men are following you and harrassing you, of course, it's a different story.

And while I am the last person to minimize the significance of gendered power relations in society as a whole, in this case I just don't see any reason to give random pathetic men on the street the power to make me feel bad about myself.

Being like Ezra in never having witnessed this behavior, I suspect that it is an East Coast phenomenon.

Nevertheless, it appears to be one of those stupid/evil behaviors that men do in the company of other men.

OK, can we have some examples of what we're talking about?

The CNN piece gives none, using terms like "yelled at," "hoots and hollers," and being "talked to in this way." (What way?)

Chas - I caught Yglesias at Borders (using humane catch-and-release methods, of course) a couple weeks back, so I doubt it.

I suspect that it is an East Coast phenomenon.

That's also what I suspected for the longest time, because I never saw it happen where I live (Memphis).

Until I asked my wife and a friend about it, and they explained it happens all the time - but never when they're walking with men.

l-t c,

Sorry to hear that. I will have to face down the youthful hordes on my own.

As for examples, I believe anything that begins with "Hey Baby," or involves the use of the term "mama," involves whistling or whispering noises, crotch grabbing, discusses tits, pairs, asses or booties -- this list is by no means exhaustive.

(How about Fareed Zakaria tonight?)

I also have never witnessed it. But it seems to me more like boys hanging out and trying to impress each other than it does abuse of the female passerby...

I assume you meant "If an attractive woman walks by."

"But it seems to me more like boys hanging out and trying to impress each other than it does abuse of the female passerby..."

The fact that they are willing to discomfit a passing woman to raise their status in the pack implies to me that they have little or no regard for the woman. She's just another tree to piss on.

Stu,

Um, by any chance are you and your girlfriend new to Bed-Stuy ("your neighborhood")?

Somehow I'm guessing you didn't grow up there.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not that that excuses this behavior, but I suspect the resentment you feel may go beyond male-female. The macho way this manifest itself may, also, be a new experience for you in light of where you and your girlfriend grew up. Assuming it wasn't Bed-Stuy.

If I've stereotyped you as a privileged, naive young white kid who's moved to what until fairly recently was one of the most violent and depressed inner-city black ghettos in America ("your neighborhood"), forgive me.

And -- again -- that doesn't excuse this.

Definitely not an east coast phenomenon, but certainly regionally variable. The worst I've experienced was in parts of the southeast, because of regional gender norms I'm sure, but also in part because walking anywhere is so rare that you draw more attention to begin with.

Least common? Northampton, MA. But then, my theory has always been that if a woman was hassled in Northampton, 5 radical feminist lesbians with blackbelts would jump out from behind the nearest hedge and deal with the issue. (Not only am I from Northampton, I actually took some classes at that dojo, so I'm allowed to say this.)

Even if you don't feel threatened, which I generally don't, it's hard to avoid the power dynamic involved. If someone screams at you out of nowhere, at a minimum, you're startled -- and if you visibly jump, that becomes a subject for further comment, usually crowing over the fact that, yes, the screamer has asserted power over you by getting that reaction. I've always wished I had the combination of anger and self-possession a friend of mine in high school did: she used to just turn around and go deck the guy. (And today, she's a yoga teacher. Go figure.)

I know this is about 7 hours after the fact, and pretty pointless all-in-all, but in response to brklyngrl's categorization of me as the kind of person "who always show up in threads and compare catcalling to flirting," I'd like to point out that I explicitly did not make such a comparison - I was aware of the danger of making such a comparison, and I made efforts in my original post to disavow such a thing. There's obviously a difference. I simply posed an honest question about where the line gets drawn, in that Catherine's secondarily-linked-to post cited examples of what seemed to me to be not abusive or otherwise power-asserting behavior, and suggested violence as appropriate responses (and, to make this perfectly clear, I'm not trying to slander anyone or say that Catherine is actually making an honest threat or anything like that). On the one hand, there's obvious bad behavior, such as quintessential catcalls. On the other, there is behavior such as short-term flirting at a location like a bar or a club. Somewhere in between is a point where behavior becomes unacceptable. If the examples in the secondarily-linked post are unacceptable, then I don't know where that line is whatsoever, and would like to know where it is, so I don't inadvertently act like the kind of guy "who always show up in threads and compare catcalling to flirting."

As both a feminist and a women of color (latina) these discussions about catcalling often make me uncomfortable -

There's often a race and/or class element happening here that women and feminists tend to overlook. I've seen a pattern that some women react badly when spoken to by men darker/poorer than they are.

They have kind of a "how dare you try to talk or flirt with me" kind of reaction.

Sometimes guys on the street are totally out of line - but sometimes not. Sometimes they're is just trying to flirt or meet somebody new. Those cases are most interesting to me. Is it really insulting to be told you have a nice smile? When is it ok for a stranger to talk to you? When is it ok to try to flirt with someone? If the answer is "NEVER!" - that sounds like a pretty lonely and boring society to live in.

So M,

Are you really suggesting that women who are part of a gentrifying demographic should be tolerant of harrassment that comes from minority men? That it is somehow justified or acceptable? Because that's kind of fucked up.

And Lila,

I saw a lot harrassment living in a very mixed neighborhood of DC for a decade -- and it would not easily be mistaken for flirting -- again I fear a double standard here that would never be applied to white men -- they would simply be labeled, (appropriately in my mind) pigs.

In college, I lived in a university neighborhood that was very upscale except for the actual students of course. I never heard a catcall there except in old Bugs Bunny cartoons. Then I moved to a diverse neighborhood (ie, mostly nonwhite) where catcalls are very frequent especially from Hispanics. I suspect it's a culture clash here but I've never been to Latin America. My new neighborhood reminds me of France and Greece where the catcalls are also frequent. I would definitely prefer the contemporary mainstream American standard of no catcalls but what I am to do? And yes I know that I'm an "intruder, invader" and all the rest for daring to move into a nonwhite neighborhood. Is this supposed to be a when in Rome thing?

Lila, I hear you, though I don't agree with the idea that it's "not so bad" to be asked to smile. I'm a white woman in a racially mixed neighborhood in NYC, and I've noticed both that men of color are much more likely to indulge in street harassment--and that, yes, my reaction has on occasion differed.

I remember being pleased once when a white man walked up to me, smiled, and said, "I just want to tell you that you look beautiful." Did his approach feel less threatening because he was approaching me in a context in which I felt safe--broad daylight, face-to-face, one-on-one, in language that seemed more like an invitation to conversation than an assertion of power--or because he was white?

I've discussed racial disparity in catcalling (that is, why it seems that black and Latino men are more prone to doing so than white men) with female friends, and we often chalk it up to "cultural differences." Which may be a part of it--I don't know and am not qualified to say. But a less lazy way of explaining it could be to examine the ways in which disenfranchised men reclaim public spaces at the expense of women.

I'd be curious to know how women of the same race as the catcaller would respond. A pig is a pig, and if a white man hissed at me as I walked by and told me I had a nice pair, I'd react the same way as if he were not white. But the fact is, that rarely happens to me--the way in which strangers of my own race approach me is different than those of other races. It can still be threatening, for sure, but it tends to be in language and methods that are more familiar, and therefore perceived as less threatening. (For the record, bar-gropers tend to be of my own race, in my experience, so it's certainly not that I think white men are any more sensitive to gender disparities than non-white men. But the sense of entitlement can vary.)

not sure why I even went to this article on memeorandom; thought it was about politics. but anyway: I read an article, cover story, if I recall correctly, in the Washington DC City Paper last August about such men (not sure f they should be called "catcallers" but I'll let the etymological discussion go). the author interviewed women who had been harassed/appreciated thusly (yes, I think harassed is correct here) and also talked to the males doing it. Apparently the latter enjoy a success rate in getting dates etc that was quite suprisingly high, like 25% or something (this sounds like a classic case for inflated self-reporting, however). The author also tried it out himself (in the name of science, no doubt), and that part was kinda creepy, as he acknowledged. FWIW, I
agree with Ezra here that the power dynamic differs depending on the situation, and that it is generally a sign of degradation of self, others, and our culture generally. Probably contributes to more barriers between people (especially between genders) than might otherwise exist, too. Which, contrary to what one might think, may actually be what the whole phenomenon is about -- why is that "male bonding" generally seems to require some form of idiocy, anyway?
-- Not a self-hating male, just curious.

I spent a few minutes considering this, and found the following distinction (for myself):

Being whistled at (or 'catcalled' at or whatever) by an individual guy in a public place = not threatening = taken as a (slighly misguided) compliment, and possibly a mode of flirtation.

Same behavior coming from a guy with a group of other guys, or in an isolated place = potentially threatening = power maneuver (probably subconscious) and definitely not a kind of flirtation.

In other words, on occasions when I feel threatened by something like this, I kind of assume that the guy in question meant it to be intimidating. I guess this could be an attribution bias.

I was catcalled (if that is the proper term for being followed half a block by someone describing my physical attributes and a list of truly perverted sex acts I might enjoy having performed on me) by a woman the other day as I was walking past my neighborhood gay bar. It was unsettling not just because I felt vaguely threatened (which I did) or because I wasn't sure what to do about it (which I wasn't), but also because it unseated some of the assumptions I'd previously held about my interactions with catcallers.

I had always believed that I found the experience of street harassment upsetting (and therefore didn't respond) because when men make comments about my body or sexuality, there's an implication that they might actually do those things to me, and I wouldn't be able to stop them, because many of them are bigger and stronger than I am. I believed that I was afraid of being raped or assaulted. But this was a woman, and she was smaller than I am, and I still didn't feel as though I could stand up to her. I still didn't say anything.

Basically, I felt even less powerful when this tiny woman harassed me than I do when big men harass me, because when men do it, I can tell myself that I keep quiet out of fear of physical harm. In this case, I was cowed just by the sheer discomfort of her words. I'm not sure what to do about that feeling.

As a female, I find catcalling very intrusive, dis-respectful and frankly it scares me. I live in an affluent neighborhood that is very quiet but that often has workers updating and beautifying the homes.

My husband and I have also had work done on our house and we've had many men working here and they always acted respectfully. The neighbor right next door has had men working on their house for six months and those men have always been respectful. The workers on the most recent renovation (just two houses from mine) are something entirely different. I can't go to my front yard, walk to the street or even drive in front of them. The catcalling is just extremely annoying and scary.

I have to say that the men that do this are Hispanic. I happen to be Hispanic (there are only 3 Hispanic home owners in this neighborhood). Most of my neighbors that walk or run on this street are not Hispanic and they don't get this type of disrespectful treatment. Surprise, surprise that it never happens when i am with my husband.

I think I will probably call the general contractor to discuss the situation. I don't want to feel fearful in my own house. That is just not right.