And isn't it interesting that at this late date most of us are not sure what Sen. Clinton's "goals" are?

the only way a candidate who trails on election night ends up taking the oath of office is by refusing to concede and then confidently demanding that every vote be counted -- even when the opposition, the media and the courts turn against you.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=2090

Well, it seems the cry that every vote counts is valid as long as it's to the Democrats' advantage. when it's not, they deliberately disenfranchise millions of American voters.

Nice...

"Well, it seems the cry that every vote counts is valid as long as it's to the Democrats' advantage. when it's not, they deliberately disenfranchise millions of American voters.

Nice..."

I agree. My family had its own household primary this morning, and we voted in favor of Obama by 2.5M to 0 (adults get 1M votes, kids get 500,000 according to the house rules). I demand that those votes be counted! I mean, Hillary was on the ballot, so it already has more legitimacy than Michigan.

I wonder to what extent voters are really pissed at the DNC (and if this has anything to do with their lack of funds).

The DNC has failed to take a leadership role in a number of ways this primary season. The lack of resolution on the MI and FL votes has pissed off both Hillary and Obama supporters.

As an Obama supporter, I will be annoyed if MI, particularly, and Florida are seated in any way besides an equal split of the delegates. I have no doubt that Obama will still win if they seat 50-100% as 'voted,' but this sets the worst precedent I can imagine.

Not only does it mean that the DNC loses control of the primary schedule and that future threats to punish deviant states will be perceived as hollow, but it treats what wasn't a fair vote as having some kind of legitimacy.

I'll concede that Hillary may have one both primaries, and I would have been in favor of revotes.....but we can't act like the numbers mean anything, especially when proportions matter. It's called selection bias. What if Hillary or Obama supporters were disproportionately affected or disproportionately believed that these primaries wouldn't count? It's completely plausible that, for example, fewer of Hillary's supporters showed up in Florida because they tend to be older and leaving home for something that doesn't count may not be worth the hassle and potential health risks. Similarly, Obama supporters, many of whom seemed to have been previously disenchanted by the process, may have stayed home sick of what seemed like politics as usual.

I don't really know what to say. These primaries offend the basic notion that everyone should have a right to vote on several levels but counting the votes in MI and FL does not resolve the problem.

The Clinton team could mount a legal challenge, or bus in their supporters to disrupt the convention, but though both would probably do a lot of harm to the party, neither will do much good for Clinton's chances.

Well, since the one sure way to end her chances is dropping out of the race, she will stay in, no matter no matter how much harm it does to the party or how slim her chances. I think it's been clear for a while now she's intent on using the fate of FL and MI to take this all the way to the convention, hence all the amped-up count every vote/ZImabwe/civil rights rhetoric.

Wes Clark has already said he expects Clinton to appeal the May 31 Rules & Bylaws Committee ruling no matter how they find. Which means she's taking it to the Credentials Committee, which means she's certainly not dropping out before Denver.

Because she's staked everything on Michigan and Florida, she's effectively created a situation where Obama really does need to reach 2210 delegates (Including the delegates he'd get from a full seating of Florida) to force an end to this.

I wonder if the upcoming meeting is tied to today's revelation that "longtime bachelor" (read:gay) congressman Wiener is in love with Hillary's close aide, Huma Abedin? Someone has felt the need to create a beard for this woman.

Obama could end this tomorrow by offering Hillary the VP slot.

There's really nothing "simple" about this; there's a fairly complex set of guidelines, a set of differing interpretations, and a mess that should never really have been allowed to get to this point. It may be the case that the Rules and Bylaws Committee accepts the DNC's lawyer's interpretation - that's not the interpretation that comes from either delegation's proposals - and it raises questions as well as answers them (saying only half the delegations says nothing about who those delegates would be, and as far as anyone can tell, you can't actually give all the delegates half a vote).

It's been the case for several weeks that seating Florida and Michigan would never solve the problems Clinton has at this point... but it's been the Obama campaign's refusal to acknowledge that seating them was likely, and in ways favorable to Clinton that's been as mischievous or more so than the stance Clinton has taken to simply ask that they be seated. It's always been seriously unrealistic to say that a 48 state (plus Guam, the Virgins and Puerto Rico) decision would be appropriate way to count delegates towards this nomination. And then too, the refusal of almost anyone but Clinton supporters (which is to say the media) to let these processes go forward and then decide their meaning has been of no help, either. We will know, after Saturday, more clearly what will happen with the Florida and Michigan delegations, which will probably be a compromise - not a great one, but a workable one - that will give Mrs. Clinton a slight advantage, not enough to change the obviously likely outcome of an Obama nomination. But this isn't "simple", and it's a little late to insist on simplicity in solving the nomination struggle. We lost that, really, once the calendar fell apart last winter, even if many of us didn't see it at the time. At this point, we need to work with what we have. And what we have is a close contest, with a likely outcome, and a need to figure out how to bring two sides together. Blaming Mrs. Clinton for this mess is not going to accomplish that... that much I know.

if you use a strict interpretation of the rules the delegations should be halved and Obama should get zero delegates from FL and MI. Clinton will surely agree to that.

Clinton will surely agree to that.

Clinton's team has already stated there is no way they will agree to that.

Lmao, Remember when the clintonistas used to pretend to be loyal Democrats?

Now it's clear people like Weboy, Jeebus and the rest are only loyal to the Clintons, not the party.

"The DNC has failed to take a leadership role in a number of ways this primary season. The lack of resolution on the MI and FL votes has pissed off both Hillary and Obama supporters."

It's not clear what more the DNC could have done to resolve the status of the Michigan and Florida votes. The DNC came up with a solution which was acceptable to a clear majority of the party. All of the presidential candidates agreed with it. Howard Dean signed off on it. And, critically, all of this was done before the first vote was cast.

The reason that the issue is not considered to be resolved now is that Clinton has changed her position. If Clinton had opposed the decision not to seat Florida and Michigan voters back in 2007, there is a good chance that she would have gotten her way. Certainly people in the party would have worked very hard to find a resolution that was acceptable to Ms. Clinton. Now anything that the party does to accomodate Clinton's desire to see Florida and Michigan delegates seated will be seen as changing the rules to favor Clinton after the votes have been cast.

Kenneth, I agree. The leadership role I was hoping for was the DNC coming out and clearly and unequivocally stating that the agreed upon solution would prevail. We should not be in a position where people do not really know what will happen to the MI and FL votes.

I know they don't want to piss of people in MI and FL, but this isn't helping.

What is so amazing is that the DNC that created this goatfuck is never blamed for their PISS-POOR planning that caused all of this.

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