I generally regard any efforts to combat Islamic extremism as necessary, but this post has made me reconsider my viewpoints. I am conflicted - on the one hand, Israel is becoming more and more frustrated with Hamas, an organisation devoted to it's destruction; and on the other, this kind of reaction isn't moving us any closer to peace.

Israel is playing right into Hamas's hands - letting itself be goaded into a disproportionate response, giving Hamas militants a huge PR coup across the entire world, and after hundreds of Palestinian dead, not even managing to stop the rocket attacks!

Hamas, meanwhile, deserves nothing but scorn and contempt for holding its own civilian population hostage to Israeli reprisals that they knowingly and intentionally provoked. Israel has been calling for a halt to rocket attacks for weeks and warning that if they did not stop, they would respond.

In the end though, Israelis will pay the price for their government's inability to avoid the trap Hamas has set for them. And Palestinians will continue to suffer. Who in the region has their interests at heart?

These retaliatory strikes, on what seem to be strategically insignificant targets, are only going to mobilize an already angry Palestinian population. It's hard to see how things don't get worse for both sides.

Where was the outraged Ezra Klein post when Hamas was firing its rockets? I guess it's not "disturbing" when people fire rockets into Israel?

You know, at a certain point you have to take real world factors into consideration.

Hamas either thought they could indefinitely continue to take potshots at Israeli civilians (a concept Hamas does not recognize AFAIK) or they wanted retaliation for the publicity , knowing a new round of foreign aid to squander would come flooding in.

Hamas keeps saying it's at war with Israel and gets all self-righteous when they get a taste of anything like real war.

Israel has many, many faults and this action was probably not .... well-advised. But honestly, I can't imagine Fatah or Hamas ever running any place that any sane human being would want to live in and that tends to color my perceptions of the Palestinian 'cause'.

"and further radicalized thousands in the Occupied Territories and millions in the region. The response will not come today, of course. It will come in months, or even in years, when an angry orphan detonates a belt filled with shrapnel, killing himself and 25 Israelis."

Would this be a reasonable response in your mind? You seem to be asking the wrong questions here, Ezra. When is a civilian-targeted attack via suicide considered an appropriate response to a calculated and highly targeted assault on an armed political wing of a government you are at war with?

Wouldn't such a dynamic raise your curiosity about the society that respectively equates military targets with school yards?

You grant us a cursory mention on the qassam rockets, as if their lacking in a guidance system somehow makes them less dangerous or less effective. The purpose is twofold: 1. To maintain an atmosphere of fear in southern Israel, and 2. to harm as many civilians as possible. The men firing these rockets aren't idiots. They've received training. They've likely fired the rockets before. They have maps. They aren't shooting at Jerusalem or Washington with reckless abandon, they're shooting at Israeli school yards with shrapnel-laden heads.

So, I ask you again, Ezra Klein: Your biggest concern seems to be the reprisal, while you express very little concern with the dynamic itself.

Why don't you question a society that puts children and militants on an even par?

Vidor, that's a strawman argument. I haven't seen anybody say that Hamas has been justified in firing rockets into Israel. The question here is whether or not the deliberate targeting of civilians in Gaza is a proportionate or just response on the part of Israel.

And the strategic question matters, as well. Hamas is apparently very unpopular in the Arab world and this is not just generating sympathy from people who were formerly unsympathetic, it creates significant risks that organizations that are less inept, like Hezbollah, are going to start firing rockets into Israel along northern and eastern borders, as well. It's hard to see how this advances Israeli security or strategic interests in any useful way. I think Ilya is spot-on.

I guess it's not "disturbing" when people fire rockets into Israel?

You want shared outrage for Hamas rockets and yet bring none for Israel's disproportionate attack? And where is any of your outrage for Darfur or Rwanda for that matter? I guess your silence can only mean you don't find it "disturbing".

Why don't you question a society that puts children and militants on an even par?

What good is "questioning a society" going to do? You're saying the Gazans deserve to be bombed to hell because they are poor, largely uneducated, have no economic opportunities (besides joining Hamas as policemen), and have been radicalized by years of deprivation? Who is responsible for all of the above?

As I wrote above, Hamas is despicable and their strategy of targeting Israeli civilians is both morally bankrupt and completely ineffective in advancing the Palestinian cause. I don't think any reasonable person would claim otherwise. International urging for Israel to temper its response have always been accompanied by demands that Hamas stop its rocket attacks as well.

But if Israel wants to undermine Hamas and promote alternative Palestinian organizations that will be willing to negotiate with them and will not resort to violence, their heavy-handed response this week is completely the wrong strategy.

Hamas is winning a huge PR victory despite being the agressors - and Israel is handing this to them on a silver platter. This is a bad move even apart from the humanitarian considerations.

When is a civilian-targeted attack via suicide considered an appropriate response to a calculated and highly targeted assault on an armed political wing of a government you are at war with?

Sorry for the multiple posts, but this part really rubbed me the wrong way.

Saying "Action X will lead to more suicide bombings in the future" in no way implies approval or support for suicide bombings. It's an argument that Action X is ineffective and counterproductive.

Surely we can debate these issues without attributing sympathy for terrorism and murder to our opponents?

The question here is whether or not the deliberate targeting of civilians in Gaza is a proportionate or just response on the part of Israel

Deliberate targeting of civilians? That’s a pretty serious charge. Is there any evidence for it?

The problem with “proportionality” arguments is that “proportionality” exists in the eye of the beholder. Hamas has fired off over 1,200 rockets at Israel in the last year. What’s the “proportionate” response? For Israel to lob exactly the same number of rockets back at Gaza? For Israel to target the Gazans with a steady drip, drip, drip of rockets over the course of 12 months? If, on the other hand, “proportionality” is measured by the number of fatalities -- and Israel must abide by that standard -- then it can apparently do nothing in response. Well, not nothing: its children can cower in bomb shelters in perpetuity.

That’s dumb.

The other problem with “proportionality” arguments is that they play into the hands of terrorists who twist them around for their own strategic advantage. Once Hamas establishes that rocket attacks will go unanswered so long as the rockets are fired from heavily-settled areas (because an Israeli response would cause a disproportionate number of deaths), then Hamas is empowered by that fact: it can fire rockets at civilians with impunity.

In that way lies madness. Instead, Israel must be permitted to respond forcefully to Hamas’s sustained campaign of terror -- even if it leads to 300 casualties, or 3000, or 300,000. (Whether it’d be prudent for Israel to launch attacks that’d kill 300,000 Arabs is another matter entirely.) Hamas’s official position is that every Israeli citizen is a legitimate military target who may be murdered -- and its violent actions match that doctrine. I have little sympathy.

Looking ahead, while refreshing the memory of the recent past, it seems true that Israel's military prowess is and will be less significant.

Hezbolah in Lebanon offered a lesson on what may be ahead. Hamas + PLO + Hezbolah tactics, local infrastructure and organization + arab outrage and increased support for Palestinian revolt = a very dim future predicted by the handwriting on the wall. This path doesn't lead to peace.

Above I wrote: “I have little sympathy.” That was tremendously uncharitable of me and a mistake. Maybe I wrote it because Israel, to me, is an emotional topic. But it was a dumb rhetorical flourish. The truth is that I have tremendous sympathy for the Palestinians -- especially for those and the families of those who’ve been maimed or killed simply because they’re in the wrong place at the wrong time.

What I should have said is that, notwithstanding my sympathy, Israel is justified in its military actions.

No way to fit it into a larger strategy that leads towards eventual peace. No way to fool ourselves into believing that it will reduce bloodshed and stop terrorist attacks.

I think you're missing the point (or maybe just making it too obscurely for me to see) that it isn't intended to do any such thing. It's intended to make the Arabs give up and go away.

This is a dumb plan because they will never do that. But when no other alternative is ideologically acceptable, you somehow wind up committed to doing the impossible.

Peace would require acknowledging that both sides have the same human rights and that neither religion can reign justly over a mixed population. It would require a separation of church and state that makes the U.S.'s arguments over its frequently ignored, halfheartedly enforced religion clauses look like a pillow fight. In a considerable sense, it would require that Israel not be Israel anymore, that it be some other country on the same land. A "Jewish state" cannot justly govern a land containing non-Jews (a principle you might think the Jews of all people would be familiar with from all their centuries of living under the unjust rule of Christians and Muslims, but apparently ingroup exceptionalism springs eternal, or something).

Neither side is willing to forsake religion for peace, and so neither side will get peace. (Short of genocide, which Israel might actually be physically capable of but I don't really see them going through with. I could be wrong though.)

You're ascribing good motives to Israel that simply are not there.

I mean this in all seriousness: 'Israel, right or wrong' *follows necessarily* from 'Israel, wrong.'

I am conflicted - on the one hand, Israel is becoming more and more frustrated with Hamas,

If that's the case, they ought to do everything in their power to undermine the popularity of Hamas. Massively disproportionate attacks aren't the way to do that.

Well, it would be nice to see a post from Ezra once in a while specifically calling out Hamas. Do we not do that because we all know Hamas is fucked up? Or are they the doofuses who don't quite do enough damage to qualify for anger?

Anyway, I'm sticking with my opinion of the region - everyone's fucked up, and everyone's doing the wrong thing. I'm as pissed off at Israel as I am at Hamas. Who the fuck fires rockets at civilians? BOTH OF THEM.

"Your biggest concern seems to be the reprisal, while you express very little concern with the dynamic itself."

"Well, it would be nice to see a post from Ezra once in a while specifically calling out Hamas."

We will never see that, because Klein, and people like him, actually don't have a problem with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

"We will never see that, because Klein, and people like him, actually don't have a problem with Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians."

Hmmm, I'm not so sure as I'd say that. It certainly is easier to post on something large like this - the killing of hundreds of people - as opposed to a small-scale continually ineffective assault like Hamas does. Of course, Hamas would love to be as effective as Israel is.

"But sometimes Israel is simply wrong."

Yes, but not this time. It's a war that the Palestinians formally declared on the Israelis 60 years ago, for no good reason and in direct violation of UN resolutions and international law. they have the right to wage war and protect their people. They have offered peace many, many, many times, but Hamas wants war, not peace. So they wage war. Hopefully this will cause the Palestinians to surrender and end their illegal war. But if not, they can have more war. 60 more years of it, if they want. It's up to them.

Every single person criticizing the Israelis would do the same if the rockets were hitting their own countries. They all know it too.

Vidor clearly doesn't have a problem with pedophilia, given his lack of comments on the evils of pedophilia. No?

There's a way to defuse Hamas and all the other extremists, but Israel refuses. They are bringing this on themselves. They are committing suicide. Violence in response to violence is simply not the answer, PERIOD. I no longer accept the rationale of the victimized bully. The Israelis must integrate the Palestinians into the state of Israel, which has to become a non-sectarian nation in order to survive.

They treat Arabs like dogs. The Arabs bite. The Israelis say, "Look, they're dogs!" Sorry, folks. I and millions of other Americans simply don't buy this anymore.

It's a war that the Palestinians formally declared on the Israelis 60 years ago, for no good reason and in direct violation of UN resolutions and international law.

Awesome. Those crazy Palestinians. Starting that silly war in 1948 for no discernible reason...

Hopefully this will cause the Palestinians to surrender and end their illegal war.

Awesomer. I mean, as everyone knows, the monolithic entity knowns as "the Palestinians" is this close to surrendering. A few more missiles dropped on Gaza and Israel will have them right where it wants them!

Every single person criticizing the Israelis would do the same if the rockets were hitting their own countries. They all know it too.

Umm. WRONG.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I still know of at least one exception.

I agree with John above. I'm sick of supporting Israel and the reflexive knee jerk support Israel gets from Americans. I've become deeply suspicious of the dual loyalty that is expected of our politicians to both the Israeli and American flags.

As Americans, why does this conflict interest us in the slightest? No one cares anymore. This is geopolitical kabuki theater. Both Israel and the Palestinians are doing a war dance that's almost choreographed. Both sides have extremist parties interested in perpetuating the conflict only so that they can thump their chests and wag their dicks and maintain political power in their own country.

To all the Israeli apologists, warmongers, and racebaiters, if you love Israel so much, go there and join the IDF.

Well, it would be nice to see a post from Ezra once in a while specifically calling out Hamas. Do we not do that because we all know Hamas is fucked up? Or are they the doofuses who don't quite do enough damage to qualify for anger?

Ezra's country isn't putting the full weight of its power (or nearly) into supporting Hamas. Given the deep American involvement, Americans bear some indirect responsibility for what Israel does. So just as Ezra no doubt spends more time talking about Abu Ghraib than he does the torture chambers of other countries, yes, he pays more attention to Israel's crimes.

Elias implied that Israel would refrain from bombing because of possible civilian casualties?? Now that's humor we can believe in. Way funny.

AP: "Yet Hamas leaders were forced into hiding, most of the dead were from the Hamas security forces, and Israel's military intelligence chief said Hamas' ability to fire rockets had been reduced by 50 percent. Indeed, Hamas rockets fire dropped off sharply, from more than 130 on Saturday to just over 20 on Sunday."
Sounds like a win to me. I don't get all the bleating. Combattants dead, leadership decapitated, threat reduced. Every few years a pruning back. Peace. Repeat. Long war.

Elias implied that Israel would refrain from bombing because of possible civilian casualties?? Now that's humor we can believe in. Way funny.

There’s a big difference -- a world of difference -- between incidentally causing civil casualties and targeting civilians.

All of this blahblah is just that. Israel had a large hand in creating Hamas in the first place. The true lesson is that Israel's own actions are what always bite Israel in the butt. This current wave of mass murder by Israel will also end up biting them in the butt.

Since headlines routinely scream about dead Palestinian civilians when even one is killed, and since the headlines here are about "300 Palestinians killed," the logical conclusion is that the overwhelming majority of these 300 people killed were not civilians, but terrorists.

So it's not clear why that should be "disturbing" at all.

A few important notes on this attack, courtesy of Haaretz:

"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. According to the sources, Barak maintained that although the lull would allow Hamas to prepare for a showdown with Israel, the Israeli army needed time to prepare, as well.

...

"The plan of action that was implemented in Operation Cast Lead remained only a blueprint until a month ago, when tensions soared after the IDF carried out an incursion into Gaza during the ceasefire to take out a tunnel which the army said was intended to facilitate an attack by Palestinian militants on IDF troops."

So Ehud Barak's government was laying the ground-work for this assault six months before the end of the cease fire, before a single rocket was fired, and then -- before the ceasefire ended -- launched raids into Gaza, adding to the provocation (to speak nothing of the blockade of Gaza).

In the language of mindless apologists for every Israeli action: "No government on earth would tolerate such provocation!" Except of course, Hamas launching rockets into Israel was wrong, despite the unambiguous provocations by Barak. Likewise, Israel's response to Hamas's provocation is wrong.

(Source: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050426.html)

Israel and Hamas have become each other's tar baby.

Joblessness in Palestine is Israel's problem? Checkpoints and border crossings between Gaza and Israel are Israel's problem? What "unflinching oppression" and "daily humiliations" is Israel imposing in the Palestinian territories?

They wanted their own country. Now they have it. And such a great job they've done with it.

Your bias is showing, Ezra. You shouldn't try to justify the launching of rockets as "potshots". Some might call such potshots "terrorism" or "attempted murder".

jeebus, touche, that's a very good point. Uhh, I think that comes off as sarcastic when I'm being quite serious. Thinking about it, I agree, our country is putting most of its support behind Israel and so it should be called out much more often than Palestine is.

That being said, I would wager that the number of posts specifically calling out Israel is some number larger than 1 while the number of posts specifically calling out Hamas would be a number that is either 1 or 0. Anyone here have a longer memory than I do? I cannot recall, this is more an educated guess/feeling.

I guess my main point is, both these countries are in the wrong here, and sure, Israel has done a lot wrong to the Palestinians. But Hamas shooting rockets at civilian areas is a pretty gosh-darn bad thing to do, too. It'd be nice to have a little more commentary on that from someone who's opinion I respect, y'know?

Your bias is showing, Darren.

Did you read the text of the Haaretz article I linked to?

To rephase your own statement: "Some might call Ehud Barak's violation of the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire 'terrorism'" and while we're at it "Some might call the economic blockade of Gaza by Israel 'attempted murder.'"

Guess what, that doesn't justify Hamas's rocket attacks. Likewise, rocket attacks do not justify the attack undertaken by Israel.

Reading your article, i cannot believe that Livni and Barak did not contact you first before taking any action. I mean, what could they know about the reactions and implications of dealing with Hamas compared to you? Next time you can advise them then what is a "proportionate" response for dealing with Islamic terrorists.

If you knew anything about military and intelligence planning then you could comment. Israel has to prepare for any scenario well in advance, whether its dealing with Hamas, Syria, Hizbollah etc. They don't make a plan on Monday and execute it on Tuesday.

A few important notes on this attack, courtesy of Haaretz:

"Sources in the defense establishment said Defense Minister Ehud Barak instructed the Israel Defense Forces to prepare for the operation over six months ago, even as Israel was beginning to negotiate a ceasefire agreement with Hamas. According to the sources, Barak maintained that although the lull would allow Hamas to prepare for a showdown with Israel, the Israeli army needed time to prepare, as well.

"So Ehud Barak's government was laying the ground-work for this assault six months before the end of the cease fire, before a single rocket was fired, and then -- before the ceasefire ended -- launched raids into Gaza, adding to the provocation (to speak nothing of the blockade of Gaza)."

John H. Farr says:

There's a way to defuse Hamas and all the other extremists, , but Israel refuses.

So why not at least mention what it is?

"that doesn't justify Hamas's rocket attacks"

No, no, aren't you reading? Hamas' attacks are justified, because Israel is bad.

I am sickened by Israel. As an American I paid for the the helicopters and ammunition Israel is using to commit these horrible acts.

Israel is wrong for what they have done to Palestine. Palestine is wrong for what they have done to Israel. The problem is that Israel has forced Palestine to act the way they do.

"If you knew anything about military and intelligence planning then you could comment."

If you were capable of understanding the meaning of sentences, then you could comment on my comment.

The article I link to clearly indicates what is already well-known in Israel: that Ehud Barak broke the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire with its Gaza raid.

As Zvi Barel writes: "Six months ago Israel asked and received a cease-fire from Hamas. It unilaterally violated it when it blew up a tunnel, while still asking Egypt to get the Islamic group to hold its fire."

My claim is that Hamas should not have responded to these incursions with rocket attacks. Likewise, Israel should not have responded to the rocket attacks with this long-planned invasion. Why is it "tolerable" for you when Israel breaks its agreements and blockades the population of Gaza, but "intolerable" when Hamas shoots rockets into Israel? Both sides claim to be acting "defensively."

It seems to me both situations are quite intolerable.

But this invasion was going to happen no matter what Hamas did. Hamas played right into Israel's hands by responding to Israel's blatant violation of the ceasefire with rocket attacks. If it weren't the rocket attacks, some twelve year old Palestinian girl would have thrown a stone in the general direction of Israel, and Israeli hawks would have blown up a few Hamas office buildings in response.

And the "New Republic" would be cheering the whole thing on saying "Don't fuck with Israel, little girl!"

* *

Vidor, you write: "No, no, aren't you reading? Hamas' attacks are justified, because Israel is bad."

I am pleased to note that you are so incapable of marshaling arguments to support your position that you've descended to sarcastically paraphrasing a view neither I nor anyone else I know who is critical of Israeli actions actually holds.

Repeat after me: Hamas rocket attacks in response to Barak's breaking of the ceasefire: bad; Israeli planes killing "scores" of people, including plenty of civilians: bad.

It's interesting to realize there are real people out there whose blood pressure rises when they even think about such claims.

Hamas rocket attacks in response to Barak's breaking of the ceasefire: bad; Israeli planes killing "scores" of people, including plenty of civilians: much, much worse

corrected for accuracy.

Oops, didn't mean for that to be Anonymous

I think if we keep in mind that the Palestinians and HAMAS are dedicated to the complete annihilation of Israel and the genocide of Jews, we'll be thinking "right".

Let's picture Hitler across the border... with a bunch of Nazi SS guards. (That would be Hamas and the Palestinians dedicated to the complete destruction of Israel and all Jews.)

Now, does it make "sense" to try to "appease" Hitler in the hopes that Hitler will seek peace with the Jews??

He won't. He's driven to destroy and annihilate them in genocide. Hitler's underlying attitude - HAMAS's underlying ideology - has to be factored in.

Israel will only have peace through strength.

Grow up. Face reality. There is evil in this world -and when it takes hold... it must be dealt with as evil.

EVIL. Grow up. These people would kill every Jew in Israel if they had the firepower to do so.

Grow up.

So when Hamas launches rockets, Israel should see if Carson Daly would like to host a New Year's party for the Palestinians or have Shakira put on a concert. The message is simple you launch rockets you die. This is exactly why people think progressives are nothing but a bunch of pussies. God help us if we are attacked again

FACT: PREVIOUS ARAB-ISRAELI NEGOTIATED AGREEMENTS PROVE THAT THE ANTI-HAMAS COUNTER-ATTACK IS NOT DISPROPORTIONATE
BBC:

Palestinians describe Israel's actions as disproportionate. One Israeli civilian was killed by rocket fire on Saturday while medical sources in Gaza say they expect the death toll there to reach 250.

SARKOZY AND OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD AGREE WITH GAZANS.

THEY ARE ALL WRONG.

PROOF:

* WHEN HAMAS OR HIZBALLAH OR FATAH NEGOTIATED PRISONER EXCHANGES WITH ISRAEL THE RATIO OF ARAB-TO-ISRAELI PERSONS HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN ABOUT A 250-500-TO-ONE RATIO:

TOL(2008): Five Hezbollah prisoners were set free for the remains of the two soldiers, the most notorious among them Samir Qantar, who spent almost 30 years in an Israeli prison for the killing of an Israeli father and his young daughter. Israel also returned the bodies of nearly 200 Palestinian and Lebanese militants that had been killed in clashes over the past decades.

* OR THIS (2004): In exchange for the bodies of three Israeli soldiers, missing since October 2000, and one Israeli businessman, abducted in October 2000 under questionable circumstances, Israel released more than 430 Arab prisoners on January 29, 2004.
* OR THIS: Hamas militants involved in seizing an Israeli soldier who they have held captive for 10 months said over the weekend that they had sent Israeli officials, through Egyptian mediators, a list of Palestinian prisoners they would demand released in exchange.

Palestinian officials have hailed the development as a concrete sign of progress in the case of the kidnapped soldier, Corporal Gilad Shalit, but Israeli officials cautioned that a deal could still be a long way off.

Reports in the Israeli press quoted unidentified Israeli government officials as saying that they had received the list and would be reviewing in coming days, but a spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would not confirm the reports.

A spokesman for Hamas, Fawzi Barhoum, said that the list was the sign of progress in the release of Shalit, who was captured by Hamas and two other militant groups in a raid into Israel last June.

"The names have been presented to the Egyptian mediators, who in turn have presented it to the Israeli side," Barhoum said Sunday. "There is a clear progress in the fact a list of names has been presented."

The list of approximately 450 names, according to the Israeli media, included Marwan Barghouti, a grassroots Fatah leader and former head of the Tanzim, a militant group. Barghouti was sentenced in 2002 to five life sentences for his role in the death of four Israelis and a foreigner.

* THIS PROVES THAT ARABS FEEL THAT ONE ISRAELI SOLDIER - OR SOLDIERS CORPSE - WAS WORTH 250-500 LIVING ARABS.

* BASED ON THIS REALITY, ISRAEL'S COUNTER-STRIKE AGAINST HAMAS CANNOT POSSIBLY BE CONSIDERED DISPROPORTIONATE - IN ANY NUMERICAL SENSE.

IN FACT, HE COUNTER-STRIKE IS VERY RESTRAINED:

* HAMAS WANTS TO ANNIHILATE ISRAEL AND ISRAELIS - THIS IS WHY THEY ATTACK ISRAEL; THIS IS THEIR ONLY GOAL.

* IN RESPONSE; ISRAEL LAUNCHES PRECISION AIR-STRIKEs MEANt TO TOPPLE ONLY THE HAMAS REGIME, AND NOT ANNIHILATE THE GAZANS.

* IF ISRAEL WANTED TO KILL ONE MILLION GAZANS THEY COULD; THE FACT THEY HAVEN'T - AND DON'T/WON'T PROVES THEIR RESTRAINT.

ALSO, THOUGH A SURPRISE, ISRAEL IMPLORED AND WARNED HAMAS FOR MONTHS.

DESPITE THESE WARNINGS, HAMAS REFUSED TO CURTAIL THEIR ATTACKS ON ISRAEL'S SOVEREIGNTY.

THEY ARE GETTING WHAT THEY HAVE LONG DESERVED.

EVEN ABBAS AND THE EGYPTIAN F.M. AGREE - HAMAS GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED:

If somebody were lobbing rockets into your neighborhood, Klein, you'd regard it as a genuine problem meriting a serious military response, and you'd want the blood of any politicians who disagreed.

It takes a big man, and a courageous one, to counsel restraint from a position of absolute safety. Willing to endure any burden that falls entirely on somebody else, that's our Ezra. What a guy!

Israel is not wrong. All of the "humiliations" and checkpoints and joblessness are self-generated by the so-called Palestinians themselves. Because of their intolerant, violent religion, they are unable to ever make peace with Jews and there is no form of appeasement tha will divert them from their murderous ways.

But killing them does seem to have a dampening effect on their enthusiasm. So I must say I enthusiastically support Israel's latest neighborhood improvement program. The "Palestinians" are getting their just desserts. They worked for them, they prayed to Allah for them and by Allah's beard, they earned them.

I rejoice in Israel's righteous wrath. You Ezra, disgust me.

You just got Pwned by McQ at the QandO:

"" Somehow, because Hamas has lousy killing machines, Israel must be constrained in their destruction of them and their capability until, I guess, they show marked improvement in killing Israelis. Then, perhaps, Klein and other would find Israel's reaction "proportional". ""

The problem is that the Palestinians insist on supporting terrorist scum. Therefore, they got what's been coming to them. You stop evil, murdering dirtbags by killing them, just like we did with the Nazis. Any other policy is appeasement and historical ignorance. Do the Palestinians have historical grievances? Maybe. But if they feel that way, they need to man up and discuss it with the IDF instead of targeting civilians. And when they get their asses kicked (like they are right now) I really don't want to hear any whining, from them or the French.

Excellent post, Ezra. Thank you for writing it. We need all the posts like this we can get on this subject.

why is it that the liberals have this irresistible compulsion to side with every bloody terrorist they can find?

Why is it that idiot bloodthirsty conservatives are incapable of viewing the world in anything but Manichean caveman terms?

Oh. Sort of answered my own question their...

...there, even...

They do this with full support the USA with the religious Right"s Sanctification. Killing is Killing! How can the death of an innocent be justified. What part of the Jeudaen-Christian Scriptures supports the socalled "Christian Right's position on this! Shame on everybody! God is able to bring His Promises to pass without misguided help of these murderers. What president- what government i9s going to be held responsible by God for the deaths of innocent women,children,elderly,and others?

When I read this blog by Ezra, I recall almost the same I read in the articles from some Arab internet sites in which Israel condemned for disproportionate response to rocket strikes by innocent palestinian "civilians".
Yes, it is disproportionate response from Israel. Proportionate response should be at list ten, hundred times stronger. 6 million jews defending our civilization against 600 million of so called peaceful muslims who dream to kill all jews and infidels like you people who crying here about so called civilians in Gaza. There are no one child is civilian. They don’t need a peace, they don’t need a state. They proved it many times. Read history of Middle Est.
After 9/11, after all terror acts in Europe, India, other countries you people still don't get who we dealing with
By the way Mr. Klein can you answer a question why no one arab country want to give citizenship to those so called Palestinian refugees but keep them in camps for decades without any rights to work and education?

Israel Right

Great Post Ezra. What Israel is doing is just mind-bogglingly insane. What I find repulsively shocking is the level of support that Israel's bombings has generated in the comment section of this blog. I can only hope that this is an AIPAC orchestrated campaign to silence independent thinkers like yourself. Because if this is just your random readers responses then it is indicative of how complicit your average American is to the war crimes that Israel is committing in the Occupied Territories. Its bad enough to simply look the other way, its entirely another thing to cheer on such a provocative and violent act as this most recent bombing campaign.

"why is it that the liberals have this irresistible compulsion to side with every bloody terrorist they can find?"

Because liberalism is mental disorder

Erza, you need to consider the fact that in 2008 Hamas has fired over 1,400 rockets into Israel. They actually have killed more Palestinians (2) than Israelis (1) but that's not the point. The point is that Hamas is a threat to the stability of the region.

"thousands in the Occupied Territories"

can we consider California and Taxes also Occupied Territories? If not so what the difference? Mr. Klein - Independent Thinker?

No capability to aim their rockets? Trig isn't hard. Maybe it's laziness or a lack of caring who gets hurt or killed.

If I fire a loaded handgun randomly into a crowd it's attempted murder, I bet. I guess if I'm a soldier and I fire randomly across a border, it's war.

Israel acts like a bunch of tools sometimes, sure. But don't try to minimize the seriousness of rocket attacks.

Why is nobody acknowledging the fact that if a militant hides amongst civilians for cover, the resulting civilian deaths are the fault of the militant. If Hamas were truly concerned about their women and children, they would cease to hide amongst them for cover.

Oh please. A "proportional" response? What would that be? Israel indiscriminately firing rockets at Palestinian civilians?

What I support is response that makes Hamas feel the pain, and hopfully wipes 'em out once and for all. Keep it going, Israel.

The rest of you can cry me a river about Islamic-terrorists getting bombed. Obama's gonna bomb Islamic terrorists, too. Because they have it coming.

Ezra Klein can keep selling this crap to the "progressive" community. He's making a living by conforming to that ideology in lock-step fashion. He'll have to try harder if he wants to convince me (not an ideologue -- just callin' things as I see 'em) that Israel cannot respond to rocket attacks like any other country would and should.

Truce broken by a terrorist group that has committed a zillion artrocities? Rockets pummeling into Israel, trying to murder innocent civilians? Bomb Hamas till they squeal like the pigs they are.

Shills like “ed” would like to pretend that the US policy of blindly supporting Israel is all the fault of nasty barbarian Xian fundies. Yeah, sure, they have some influence, at least on the Rethugs. But I’ve got a stunning exposé that will anger ed and his ilk—it’s Jews, not all Jews but many Jews, Zionist Jews, extremist Jews, neo-con Jews, racist Jews, Jews who conflate the interests of their country (allegedly the US) with those of Israel. These Jews have too much influence over US foreign policy. If Irish Americans had as much influence, then the Royalists in Ulster would now be imprisoned in wretched Bantustans just like the Palestinians. AIPAC is a major factor in this excessive influence but hardly the only one. Not only does the money flow freely to the politicos who support Israel 110% but there is the terrible danger of crossing the Zionist lobby. At the very least that means that one’s political opponents will be bankrolled and that one will be constantly smeared as an “antisemite.” Any honest observer has to admit that there’s far less free debate on Israel/Palestine in the US than there is in Israel itself, due of course to Zionist mccarthyism plain and simple. And don’t think things are going to get better under a Dem administration. Has anyone noticed that Obama’s very first personnel decision after being elected was ultra-Zionist enforcer Rahm Emanuel? Was Obama paying back the Zionists for their support or was he showing his fear of their power? Anyway, fat chance that Obama will change US policy toward Palestine. Fat chance.

Go, Israel! I support your actions 100 percent.

I'm especially proud of the way you fooled the Hamas terrorists by spreading the word that you wouldn't attack until days later, and then when they gathered in their compounds you blew the hell out of them.

The piles of corpses in uniform all have the same dumbfounded expression, like, "Huh?"

Also, I can't help but laugh at the shock on the faces of the survivors. They declared the ceasefire over and fired a big salvo of rockets, and then when Israel took them at their word and retaliated, Hamas screamed bloody murder, like cartoon housewives confronted by a mouse.

You wanted war, Hamas, and you got it. Why all the outraged screeching? You worked very, very hard for this. Enjoy it.

The notion that Israel ought to be faulted for responding “disproportionately,” presumes that there ought to have been some other, “proportionate” response. What exactly would that response be? Send rinky-dink missiles back towards Gaza? Then what? Wait for Hamas to escelate, and escelate “proportionately”?

When, in the history of mankind, has a sovereign nation ever defended itself under such a principle? Should the U.S. have met Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait with a “proportionately” weak army? What would it even have meant to confront Nazi Germany “proportionately”? The bizarenesss of the questions belie the inanity of the proposal itself.

http://michaelbroukhim.com/post/67285626/disproportionate-responses

By the way, here's one of the many reasons I'm laughing at the poor, dumb, dead Hamas subhumans lying in piles on the ground:

HAMAS Legalizes the Crucifixion of Christians and other Enemies

Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seemed to have noticed. On Tuesday Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Sharia criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, the code legalizes crucifixion.

Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time as it renewed its jihad. Here too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday Hamas lobbed a mortar at Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.

http://tinyurl.com/8uue4a

"Why is nobody acknowledging the fact that if a militant hides amongst civilians for cover, the resulting civilian deaths are the fault of the militant."

For one, because it's not true.

If a mugger steals your wallet, hides behind an old lady, and you shoot the old lady dead in an effort to shoot the old man, well, that seems like a big mistake to me. Probably still so even if there is no old lady around in the first place. I.e., the response would be "disproportionate" to the crime.

Simply put, Israel is partly response for the civilian deaths it causes. When you choose to pull that trigger, you are accepting that burden.

Indeed, many commentators here seem perfectly okay with the carnage they're cheering on. They seem in fact to be strutting in full chickenhawk mode from the safety of their own basements. Stand tall, guys!

For what’s it worth, I am sadden by the violence, yet I can not condemn Israel for responding to these attacks. Still, it seems to me that Israel has continued to create conditions that make a path to peace less successful.

Now what? Well Israel is going to continue to hammer away at Hamas’ infrastructure. Since the Hamas leadership has gone to ground, continued elimination of that leadership may well entail a ground invasion. More destruction, more killing, more hatred.

When the dust has this episode, then what? Maybe if gigantic steps are taken to dramatically improve the lives of the residents of Gaza, this cycle will surely repeat. Israel needs to rebuild what it destroys and help the families that it damages.

"...they are poor, largely uneducated, have no economic opportunities (besides joining Hamas as policemen), and have been radicalized by years of deprivation? Who is responsible for all of the above?"

Yassar Arafat and Hamas are responsible.

Period.

If the Gaza residents want to improve their lives, they need to take responsibility for their lives,instead of blindly following the bankrupt ideology of radical Islam.

Disagree with me all you want, and I'll cheerfully ignore you because you're WRONG.

Ezra Klein and 'experts' like him are the one who will now be playing into Hamas' hands.

As usual.

Screw 'em. I'd be using napalm.

It looks like the NY Times website has thrown the original version of this article down the memory hole -- it's now completely expunged the part about how HAMAS' rocket attacks caused no deaths.

Benjamin Netanyahu and Likud are responsible.

Period.

If Israeli citizens want to improve their lives, they need to take responsibility for their lives,instead of blindly following the bankrupt ideology of militant right-wing political parties.

(Turnabout is fair play, right?)

...I'm laughing at the poor, dumb, dead Hamas subhumans lying in piles on the ground...

You disgust me.

--------------------

At the risk of mind reading, I think "Hamas subhumans" neatly sums up the just-below-the-surface background assumptions of many of armchair Likudniks in the house here.

Hamas members are baby-eating subhumans, and, by extension, so are all Palestinians. After all, if they weren't just like Hamas, the mass of Palestinians would rise up against the evildoers and then welcome the Israeli settlers into their midst. Or something.

More generally, it's an example of the conservative tendency to ignore the duality between individual decisions and mass social causality. To a conservative, only the former exists (as "personal responsibility"), the latter is irrelevant.

So we're supposed to ignore the effect that Israeli occupation and human rights abuses have on Palestinian radicalization because becoming a terrorist (or even just keeping your head down and not rising up against them) is immoral and people just oughtn't do that.

So, bomb all the subhumans. I'm sure they'll surrender eventually...

First search result on google for "UN palestinian civl rights" returns a broken link. As of today the UN report on "apartheid" conditions for Palestinians does not seem to be accessable. Probably a product of Israel's "PR campaign".

Yes, indeed, let's wait for more Israeli deaths before we act "proportionately." This is the language of the new morality: "No eye for an eye. No eye for less than an eye. No eye for more than an eye." And certainly, "NEVER, an eye before any eye at all." My morality is simpler. "They come at you with a knife, you go at them with a gun." Sean Connery in the Untouchables. DISproportionate response is what will restart the "peace process," or start it for the first time is more like it.

In 1945-48, tens of millions of people were made refugees as borders were redrawn in Europe and new nations formed in Asia--Germans, Poles, Hindus, Muslims and dozens of other groups. In every case save one, the refugees ("displaced persons" they were called) were taken in by their co-religionists or co-ethnics. Only one group was refused succor--the Arabs refused to take in the Palestinian Arabs who fled the founding of Israel, even as Israel was willing to take them in as Israeli citizens if they would agree to live as such--notwithstanding that an even greater number of Jews were expelled from Arab countries in North Africa and the Middle East over the subsequent few years (and taken in by Israel).

Everywhere else, a refugee is someone forced from their home, but they are resettled and their children are residents and citizens of their place of birth... only the Palestinains are refugees generations later, as the Arab-led anti-Semitic bloc at the United Nations works to maintain their refugee status rather than take them in.

The only solution that the Arab world has proferred to Israel is that Israel should die. Ask Bill Clinton how close he came in 2000, and what was the result.

Yes, Israel has done plenty to be critical of, but the idea that this is their fault and esp. that there is an easy solution available to Israel is beyond absurd, it is evil and I say without any fear that I am exaggerating, Hitlerian.

Let's remember, Israel withdrew from Gaza only about 3 years ago, in part as a gesture toward negotiations. Immediately, the Egyptians started looking the other way as arms were smuggled through tunnels into Gaza, and the rocket attacks against Israel started within days. So much for Israel acting conciliatory.

So, Ezra and everyone else who agrees with him, what would you have Israel do, and what is your basis for believing it would lead to peace---not the peace of the grave, but a secure Israel at peace with its secure Arab (inclusing Palestinian) neighbors?

If you have an answer, let's see it.

If not, do us all a favor and STFU.

In 1945-48, tens of millions of people were made refugees as borders were redrawn in Europe and new nations formed in Asia--Germans, Poles, Hindus, Muslims and dozens of other groups. In every case save one, the refugees ("displaced persons" they were called) were taken in by their co-religionists or co-ethnics. Only one group was refused succor--the Arabs refused to take in the Palestinian Arabs who fled the founding of Israel, even as Israel was willing to take them in as Israeli citizens if they would agree to live as such--notwithstanding that an even greater number of Jews were expelled from Arab countries in North Africa and the Middle East over the subsequent few years (and taken in by Israel).

Everywhere else, a refugee is someone forced from their home, but they are resettled and their children are residents and citizens of their place of birth... only the Palestinains are refugees generations later, as the Arab-led anti-Semitic bloc at the United Nations works to maintain their refugee status rather than take them in.

The only solution that the Arab world has proferred to Israel is that Israel should die. Ask Bill Clinton how close he came in 2000, and what was the result.

Yes, Israel has done plenty to be critical of, but the idea that this is their fault and esp. that there is an easy solution available to Israel is beyond absurd, it is evil and I say without any fear that I am exaggerating, Hitlerian.

Let's remember, Israel withdrew from Gaza only about 3 years ago, in part as a gesture toward negotiations. Immediately, the Egyptians started looking the other way as arms were smuggled through tunnels into Gaza, and the rocket attacks against Israel started within days. So much for Israel acting conciliatory.

So, Ezra and everyone else who agrees with him, what would you have Israel do, and what is your basis for believing it would lead to peace---not the peace of the grave, but a secure Israel at peace with its secure Arab (inclusing Palestinian) neighbors?

If you have an answer, let's see it.

If not, do us all a favor and STFU.

More generally, it's an example of the conservative tendency to ignore the duality between individual decisions and mass social causality. To a conservative, only the former exists (as "personal responsibility"), the latter is irrelevant.

And it's a leftist tendency to ignore cause and effect.

It's a leftist tendency to be unable to distinguish between aggressor and defender.

If the aggressor has "favored liberal status" their aggression is ignored, and the response of the defender is labelled "agression".

Only a leftist is capable of this kind of cognitive dissonance. Like Klein and jack lecou.

It's a leftist tendency to be unable to distinguish between aggressor and defender.

Pray tell, who is the aggressor here, and who the defender?

Also, please enlighten us on who has "favored liberal status".

I find Mr. Klein's (and others) usage of the term "unguided" to be odd and extremely misleading. They use that term as if it were a synonym for "non-lethal". I'd like to make a point that should be obvious but apparently isn't, 99.99999% of all weapons used in human history were unguided. The 20 million killed in WWII died to unguided weapons. The London blitz and bombing of Berlin was unguided. V-2 rockets were unguided. Heck, the Hiroshima bombing was unguided.

The Hamas unguided rockets are dangerous and do kill people. Firing mortar rounds over a border into enemy towns is an act of war and this new imaginary standard of "proportionality" is being applied to Isreal is an odd manner indeed.

If someone was firing mortar rounds at the school were Mr. Klein's kids went I don't think he would be so phlegmatic.

And it's a leftist tendency to ignore cause and effect.

Also, who's ignoring cause and effect again?

Pot, kettle, have you met?

If someone was firing mortar rounds at the school were Mr. Klein's kids went I don't think he would be so phlegmatic.

Nevertheless, I think that he, like me, would still not stoop to cheerleading bloodthirsty and counterproductive collective punishment.

But you would, eh?

Peace is an illusion. First, it was the Arabs who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Then, it was the Palestinians who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Now, it's the Islamic fascists who want to eliminate the Jewish state. See a pattern here? It's the same war that started years before the founding of Israel.

It is Arabs and Islamists who keep their "beloved" Palestinians in squalid camps and it is the same who have kept this war going. They don't want "peace." They want war and cry like petulant children when they continue to fail and fail and fail.

What's sadder is useful idiotic Jews like Ezra. Ezra, you are a nice Irving -- you think if you are nice to the Jew's enemies, then they will like you. It has never worked that way in our history. They'll come for you, too.

This isn't about justice for the Palestinians. This is about a decrepit society that's been in decline for hundreds of years. Their solution? Kill the Jews!

Mr. Klein completely misses two crucial points:

1. Hamas has steadily increased the range of its rockets. While the shelling of southern Israel seems tolerable to him, the country cannot simply wait until its largest city and its principal international airport are within striking distance irrespective of how lethel the projectiles are.

2. Israel cannot cede territory as it did in Gaza and then allow it to be used for aggression against her. Consequently, its failure to stop the rocket fire from Gaza dooms any hope of a peacefule settlement and withdrawal from the West Bank.

For these two reasons, Israel's actions are necessary however disturbing.

We could have a peace if only ...

this is a delusional kumbaya dream.

There is nothing to discuss in the ME...YET..as the HAMAS Charter, and the statements of Nasrallah make clear. They are not ashamed to say all this.
They object to the occupation of 1948 not 1968.
Killing HAMAS is not about making peace. Killing HAMAS is not about PR. Killing HAMAS is not about drawing a border. Killing HAMAS is not about Shalit.

Killing HAMAS is a NECESSITY for Israel to survive.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
HAMAS CHARTER
Take them seriously.
Do them that respect
If HAMAS and Hizballah live, Israel cannot. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but from 1091 to the fall of Acre was a long time. That's the 'game' being played.
The cruaders went home, and the Templars went to Cyprus. The jews have nowhere to go, and ARE HOME.
When the arab peoples themselves accept this, a negotiated peace will occur in a year.

Peace is an illusion. First, it was the Arabs who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Then, it was the Palestinians who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Now, it's the Islamic fascists who want to eliminate the Jewish state. See a pattern here? It's the same war that started years before the founding of Israel.

It is Arabs and Islamists who keep their "beloved" Palestinians in squalid camps and it is the same who have kept this war going. They don't want "peace." They want war and cry like petulant children when they continue to fail and fail and fail.

Damn subhuman Arab cockroaches. Bomb 'em all. It's more than they deserve for their often violent bitterness and decades of failure to capitulate and flee the last vestiges of their former homeland.

Why, after the 1948 war, Israel was generous enough to offer return to fully 15% of the refugees! And the ungrateful bastards turned them down. Outrageous. But what else can you expect from subhumans?

Jack,

You really shouldn't call the Palestinians subhuman and cockroaches. Those are your words, not mine. They show your true colors,

I have been in Palestinian homes in Gaza and the West Bank. Individually they are fine people.

Collectively, they have followed leadership down the rathole of history.

Israel left Gaza in 2005. What has the heroic Hamas done to help their beloved people?

2. Israel cannot cede territory as it did in Gaza and then allow it to be used for aggression against her. Consequently, its failure to stop the rocket fire from Gaza dooms any hope of a peacefule settlement and withdrawal from the West Bank.

This is exactly the illogic that will make this feud last another 200 years.

This is a conflict between two children, one larger and stronger, the other smaller, but fighting dirty.

No one can really tell who started it, and it doesn't make any difference anymore. They trade punches over the decades, the stronger one now holding the weaker in a headlock, bloodying him with retaliatory strikes, but unwilling to actually beat him to a pulp; the smaller one unable to inflict more than occasional painful but superficial blows to the other's crotch.

It can only end when side decides to fucking grow up, break the cycle, and offer a genuine hand of friendship.

The only reasonable expectation is that that side really has to be the moderately functional first-world democracy, NOT the failed pseudo-state with its fractured population and decades of institutionalized bitterness and apoplectic frustration.

And yeah, this means accepting that the proffered hand is probably going to be swatted away initially. They may even have to endure a few more painful kicks to the balls before it is accepted.

But that pain'll be over decades sooner than this conflict will last otherwise.

Israel needs to grow the fuck up.

Collectively, they have followed leadership down the rathole of history.

If you've visited Palestinians, I'd expect a little more sympathy for the immense difficulty and immorality involved in trying to hold the Palestinians as a whole responsible for the actions of Hamas.

...The post I was responding to, however, was couched in the language of an ignorant, homicidal neocon twit.

I'd expect a little more sympathy for the immense difficulty and immorality involved in trying to hold the Palestinians as a whole responsible for the actions of Hamas.

Surely you jest. Maybe I am just hallucinating, but didn't the Palestinians ELECT Hamas? As I always tell my kids, you get the leadership you deserve.

By the way, maybe you should consider anger management classes?

btw Jack,

If due to your anger problems, you spontaneously explode, would that be considered a suicide bombing?

Not that there is anything wrong with it...

Love,
Your ignorant neocon (we know what you really mean here) twit.

Surely you jest. Maybe I am just hallucinating, but didn't the Palestinians ELECT Hamas? As I always tell my kids, you get the leadership you deserve.

Because obviously Palestinian refugees have perfect information about how bad Hamas is. And perfect information about the policy path available to Palestinians that would lead out of the morass. And a perfect array of electoral choices. And of course, nobody ever made a stupid decision out of anger and frustration.

Right. Obviously they deserve what's coming to them.

I'm rubbing my eyes and scratching my head regarding not only this article but the responses. I have decided based upon this article by Mr. Klein that Jews have no collective cohesion whatsoever. Meanwhile Ehud Barak, who has seen it all is the only Israeli at this point that has my total support to liquidate who and what he needs to maintain some semblance of tranquility for Israel.

So, with this said Mr. Klein, go ahead and initiate that olive branch to Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Iran, et al., and I’ll show you a bowling ball with hair on it called Ezra hoisted on a post in what used to be called the State of Israel. I’m now forced to face this true and illuminating ignorant arrogance of this Jewish left fragmentation here in the States to really now understand why the Arab world cannot stand you people and yes I said you people.

I am tired of my money and time going to the support of Israel all the while dealing with isometrics from not only Muslim extremists but now the Jews themselves. Who’s the mark now?

Mr. Klein, you take good care of your Motherland ya hear?

Very sincerely,

A Christian who if you throw rocks at will throw grenades.

Your ignorant neocon (we know what you really mean here) twit.

Let's take a look at your earlier post, shall we?

Peace is an illusion. First, it was the Arabs who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Then, it was the Palestinians who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Now, it's the Islamic fascists who want to eliminate the Jewish state. See a pattern here? It's the same war that started years before the founding of Israel.

It is Arabs and Islamists who keep their "beloved" Palestinians in squalid camps and it is the same who have kept this war going. They don't want "peace." They want war and cry like petulant children when they continue to fail and fail and fail.

What's sadder is useful idiotic Jews like Ezra. Ezra, you are a nice Irving -- you think if you are nice to the Jew's enemies, then they will like you. It has never worked that way in our history. They'll come for you, too.

This isn't about justice for the Palestinians. This is about a decrepit society that's been in decline for hundreds of years. Their solution? Kill the Jews!

So, we have:

-Gross oversimplification of the conflict and the Palestinian/Arab perspective ("eliminate the Jewish state'). Check.

-Ill-defined allusion to "Islamic fascists". Check.

-Utterly unsupported accusation that "Arabs" (I mean, what, all of them?) "want war". Check.

(And even assuming that "Arabs who want war" refers only to certain Arab leaders who benefit from the status quo, then we've got the claim that they constantly fail. Which is dumb, since they obviously seem to be doing a very good job of keeping the war going, at least as long as Israel and America continue to cooperate.)

-Referring to Ezra as a "useful Jew", complete with bizarre strawman characterization of his position. Check.

-Ahistorical observation about the "decrepit society" of the Arabs/Palestinians, apparently universally recognized by Arabs to be in irreversible decline, which is why they lash out with antisemitism. Awesome.

Yeah. You're right. Nothing there that might make you look like an ignorant neocon or anything.

I must just be angry. Probably just a case of irrational liberal Bush hatred.

Jack,

Here's where I come from. I spend the summer of '88 working on my master's thesis, which was about groups in Israel and Palestine that were working on developing relationships in non-political spheres, i.e. Arab and Jewish businesses, a Kibbutz where Arabs and Jews lived together, etc. This was during the first intifada.

I proudly had a button on my backpack, with Israeli and Palestinian flags that said two states for two peoples.

I wept at the signing of the Oslo accords at the White House.

But after Arafat chose war over peace, I gave up.

Peace in the Middle East is an illusion. Call it a gross oversimplification, but I came away from that believing that while there are plenty of Palestinian who do not want war, they have leadership, both theirs and the Arab states, that don't want peace. Must easier to call for holy war against the Jews than to lead their people and take the risks that Sadat and King Hussein did.

I wish it weren't so, but people who are singing "Give Peace a Change" are naive.

Go ahead, call me some names, curse. You do that well.

Your ignorant neocon twit.

Random-

That is a very different position than the one you outlined above.

I still think you're wrong, but at least not in an offensive way.

FWIW, you may want to be much more careful in the future about using the neocon catchphrases and overbroad generalizations I pointed out above.

But I apologize for confusing you with one of the armchair neocon trolls showing up for the Israel posts.

Still, like I say, I think you're wrong.

Not about those despicable segments of the Palestinian and Arab leadership, but about the possibility for peace.

I think there's a realistic path in trying to force America's opportunistic leaders into pressuring Israel's opportunistic leaders into taking steps toward some semblance of justice in Palestine that would start to cool Palestinian resentment and take the wind out of the sails of groups like Hamas.

In the meantime, Ezra's point should hardly be controversial: actions like Israel's latest are stupid and counterproductive, serving only to accelerate Hamas' rise.

(As someone in another thread pointed out - the blitz didn't make the British angry at the prime minister, it made them angry with the Germans. This should be easy to figure out.)

(Incidentally, it's still a bit unfair to pin all the blame for the failure of Oslo on Arafat. As with all things Israeli-Palestinian, there's plenty to go around. Sharon, Netanyahu, et al. were not exactly helpful either. And given the dysfunctionality of Israeli politics, a certain share of blame rests on the rest of the world too, especially the US.)

(Also not to forget the extent to which Arafat's hands may have been tied by internal Palestinian politics. Including Hamas.)

If somebody were lobbing rockets into your neighborhood, Klein, you'd regard it as a genuine problem meriting a serious military response, and you'd want the blood of any politicians who disagreed.
Well, I don't want to put words into Ezra's mouth, but if someone were lobbing rockets into *my* neighborhood, I'd regard it as a genuine problem meriting an *effective* response, and if a nonmilitary response was more effective than a military response, then I'd want the nonmilitary response.

Any baboon can put up a fight; it takes a human being to consider the benefits of holding your fire before you shoot your foot off. (Sadly, humanity is a necessary but by no means sufficient condition for this capability, as this thread demonstrates at tedious length.)

A proportionate response would be fire enough rockets into Gaza as to effectively carpet bomb back to the Stone Age.

HMMM - not a bad idea after all!

Israel fires hundreds of rockets and bombs in Gaza,as reported by the media, and only 375 people are dead.

Either Israel has the lousiest aim in the history of warfare, or it's taking great care to target only those who it considers a threat, knowing that no matter what it does it's going to be criticized.

"Disproportionate response" is another one of those idiotic media memes. Are you suggesting that Israel fire 6500 unguided missiles into civilian areas of Gaza? Because that's what Israel has had to put up with for three years.

Hamas wanted a war. Now they have it. Let them be happy for at least a little while...

Where is the great disturbance and radicalism being formed by the fact that Hamas has just approved crucifixion for Christians in the Gaza strip? Is this not even remotely an issue about what these poor innocent people are doing over there? And someone taking potshots at my children's schools or at my house would most definitely cause me to start some carefully aimed superior firepower headed ad the one taking potshots at me. Especially knowing he wants to crucify me and my family should he reach us.

What's reaaaaally funny is that ost of the people defending Israel's actions as totally proportionate where up in arms this summer of Russia's "disproportionate" reaction to Georgian agression.
Hypocrite wankers.

Or maybe "proportionate" is completely irrelevant. People start throwing bombs into schools and buses, that's nonnegotiable. Whether the response is "too strong" is meaningless; how could it be? If force is the only thing understood, then force needs to be used, and strongly. Israel should never have given up the strip in the first place, so I guess in that sense they're "wrong."

Reading the responses of the fools above makes me very thankful the Republican Party was voted out of power in 2008. What is clear is the inability to separate righteous anger at a provocation from developing the best response to advance your own interests.

So, to you self-righteous, ultra-macho military masters who are flapping your penises around trying to show who is tougher I've got this message.

You are fools.

Indulging your violent impulses might feel good but in the case of Israel Ezra Klein is trying to show you that your impulses will betray you. For this war to ever end we'll need intelligence and patient leadership on both the Israeli and Palenstinian sides. Knee-jerk military strikes aren't going to solve this conflict.

How many examples do you need to finally get it through your thick heads that military strikes on a largely hidden enemy are not going to end ANY conflict?

It doesn't work morons. So climb down off your war-horse and stop trying to prove how manly you are. People are dying on both sides and more ill-considered military strikes aren't going to solve a damn thing!

I should start lobbing rockets into Klein's neighborhood. I jhate to break it to a self hating Jew like Klein but Jews have a right to live in Judea. It is the place where Jews have lived for thousands and thousands of years. Islam was only invented little more than a thousand years ago. So how does a self hating Jew like Klein justify asking the Jews to abandon Israel to the hate filled Arabs who loudly proclaim they only want the Jews to be destroyed and nothing else will satisfy them? Klein sides with the haters and killers. Jews who defend themselves are 'asking for it' according to Klein. Klein probably gives money to Hamas

The reason that there is a disproportionate number o victims is the disproportinate behavior of Hamas(& Fatah) towards their civilians vs Israel and their civilians.

So i ask Mr.Ezra Klein to include in Israeli victims tally, those that were saved by timely warnings of the system that Israeli put in place, those hit and saved by an efficent communication systems and that could reach in time to be saved by medical system and the great medical first teams that arrive to the scene.

I ask also to Mr.Ezra Klein to take out from Palestinians victims claims, those that were because Hamas fired or operated from near their homes, used house homes as weapons depots and
because made combat non-uniformed and the civilians deaths that occured because of that.

Finally i ask Mr.Ezra Klein to respect Geneva Conventions.
He appears to think that Hamas that doesn't respect any of it is right.

The Limits of 'Turn the Other Cheek'

In 1940, when Hitler was scoring victory after victory throughout Europe, Gandhi addressed the following advice to the soldiers of Great Britain: "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."
Two years earlier, in the months before World War II began, Gandhi reacted to the outrage of the Nazi-inspired Kristalnacht (the national pogrom of November 9 to 10, 1938) by offering the following advice to German Jews for overcoming Nazi anti-Semitism: "I am as certain as I am dictating these words that the stoniest German heart will melt [if only the Jews] . adopt active nonviolence. Human nature ... unfailingly responds to the advances of love. I do not despair of his [Hitler's] responding to human suffering even though caused by him."

Needless to say, Jews were deeply pained by Gandhi's words, and the philosopher Martin Buber responded: "We did not proclaim, as did Jesus, the son of our people, and as you do, the teaching of nonviolence, because we believe that a man must sometimes use force to save himself or, even more, his children

Here's a proposal, Ezra. I'll load up a pistol and put on a blindfold so that I can't aim properly. You can stand on the other side of the room, and I'll take potshots at you. How does that sound? That wouldn't trouble you, would it?

The disproportionate response claim is a red herring that is truly meaningless.

Israel is now simply flexing it's Military muscles. They are a BULLY. They have killed more civilians than soldiers. Someone please tell me...where is the honor in that?

A side issue: it seems obvious to me that anyone who vocally supports all the destruction that Israel is currently creating will be seen by radical Islamic/Arab people as its enemy and justification for further terrorism. After the horrors of 9/11, I for one do NOT want any more American civilians killed because some stupid politician looked at all that was happening and only declared to the media that Hamas needs to change. That is all that I see from Bush and Britain's Blair, yet I think it far from represents how the average American feels. Most of us don't really have any strong feelings one way or another - we just know it's a mess there and right now it's being escalated by Israel. There are threatened people all over the world, so why are we taking sides right now with this when it could cause damage to the people Americans should care about most - fellow Americans? I don't want any more Americans expended as tools for someone else's hatred.

israel is full of it. so is all the history the follows it.
as well as any other country that kills the black man out of jelousy

Israel is being the terrorist/aggressor.im not saying Hamas are good people, but Israel is being a bully, they already control the exports and imports into the Westbank and control the port in Gaza.America will continue to support Israel because the Jewish nation controls so much of the world economy, but America will also politely ask Israel to stop the attacks, much the same as a smack on the hand for killing another person.The world sees through the excusses Israel continue to give, but money talks, bulldust walks

I'm Jewish and I think that Israel is making a terrible mistake. Most people in the world have no idea why Israel even attacked Hamas. The fact that Israel is killing civilians makes it look cruel and imperialistic. In a time when the world already scorns America's attack on Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel does follows the path of unwarranted killing. This is an embarassing use of power against weak and defensless civilians. More than 1200 have died needlessly. In this world economy that is suffering globally, we do not need to create even more suffering.

Does anyone really expect someone named Ezra Klein to be objective. Bitching over 2000 year old gripes and the land stolen from it's ancesteral inhabitants. If my mesiah is just an opinion and a myth, where is this covenant between God and Moses??? Why didn't it stick. Obviously those who considder themselves the rightful owners of this land (i.e. Russian and Eastern European Jews that didn't make it to Brooklin) see only their prospective and don't want peace. Do you not see that the anti-semetic branding of "greedy and covetous" comes from this. Sharing is caring; and America won't always lick your ass' based on the religion of our countries bankers. Keep that in mind, if the promised land was a true promise, the U.S. and U.K. wouldn't have slaughtered the people and bought it for you. Grow up, spoiled child

It was the Arabs who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Then, it was the Palestinians who wanted to eliminate the Jewish state. Now, it's the Islamic fascists who want to eliminate the Jewish state. See a pattern here? It's the same war that started years before the founding of Israel.

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The strategic question matters, as well. Hamas is apparently very unpopular in the Arab world and this is not just generating sympathy from people who were formerly unsympathetic, it creates significant risks that organizations that are less inept, like Hezbollah, are going to start firing rockets into Israel along northern and eastern borders, as well. I haven't seen anybody say that Hamas has been justified in firing rockets into Israel. The question here is whether or not the deliberate targeting of civilians in Gaza is a proportionate or just response on the part of Israel.

as well. Hamas is apparently very unpopular in the Arab world and this is not just generating sympathy from people who were formerly unsympathetic, it creates significant risks

Does anyone really expect someone named Ezra Klein to be objective. Bitching over 2000 year old gripes and the land stolen from it's ancesteral inhabitants. If my mesiah is just an opinion and a myth, where is this covenant between God and Moses??? Why didn't it stick.

Does anyone really expect someone named Ezra Klein to be objective. Bitching over 2000 year old gripes and the land stolen from

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yep.. i agree!

I can't imagine Fatah or Hamas ever running any place that any sane human being would want to live in and that tends to color my perceptions of the Palestinian 'cause'.

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Now what? Well Israel is going to continue to hammer away at Hamas’ infrastructure. Since the Hamas leadership has gone to ground, continued elimination of that leadership may well entail a ground invasion. More destruction, more killing, more hatred.

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They wanted their own country. Now they have it. And such a great job they've done with it.

Yes, it is disproportionate response from Israel. Proportionate response should be at list ten, hundred times stronger.

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I'm not so sure as I'd say that. It certainly is easier to post on something large like this - the killing of hundreds of people too.

Where is the great disturbance and radicalism being formed by the fact that Hamas has just approved crucifixion for Christians in the Gaza strip? Is this not even remotely an issue about what these poor innocent people are doing over there?

Thanks for you post,It's useful to me.Until WE start saving more, as a people, learn to live off OUR OWN money instead of some

when tensions soared after the IDF carried out an incursion into Gaza during the ceasefire to take out a tunnel which the army said was intended to facilitate an attack by Palestinian militants on IDF troops."

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