Their *every* provocation, Ezra? They most certainly have not answered every provocation. Not even close.

What is the threshold?

It is absolutely true that if groups like Hamas stopped attacking Israel, they could have what the (ostensibly) want. In that way, they do control the situation. It hasn't always been true, but it is now.
In what way do you think attacks like the car bomb killing of 14 Afghan school children this week are related to Israel and Hamas?

I don't really understand how the US can have a hot war with one Arab state called Iraq (and the Afghanis) and decry anything that the Israelis are doing. It must look awfully peculiar to many Arabs to see the American public debate about Israeli actions in Gaza. For all our moralizing and rationalizations one factor remains obvious-- The Americans are fighting Iraqis at one end of Arabia and the Israelis are fighting them in Gaza.

Daniel, I have an idea: stop blaming me for the GOP's and the Likud's wars, and I promise not to call you a slackjawed lackwit. What say, deal?

On-topic, the issue to me is pretty stark. It isn't what Israel may or may not do. I'd like a world where bombs didn't sometimes solve problems, but they can, so it is ever and always a valid policy choice. The issue for me is that Israel gets nothing out of this, unless you think terrorists aren't fungible, and Hamas gets everything. It was a terrible strategic play, if not quite up there with disasters like the daddy-wants-me-to-win-reelection invasion of Iraq.

Ezra, you are disappointing.

In this post, you give Hamaas a pass and tell your readers that it's OK to send rockets into Israel and that they should have no response.

And act of war is an act of war and what the hell does Hamaas believe will happen when they attack?

Ezra, just an observation - you've been writing post after post making largely the same points, from a variety of angles. It sounds like you're nagling to write a longer post (or piece)... so why not just do it? I mean, I get it: you think Israel has gone too far, and this is a terrible situation. I'd generally say that most people have reached similar conclusions, and clearly, there's a vocal, if smaller, contingernt that's bound to defend Israel's actions, whatever they are. But really, none of this gets us very far; indeed, it's the logical extension of this story over time - something happens, Israel goes to bombing and moving troops, possibly extending into neighbor territory... then Americans object, and pro-Israel Americans back up Israel's actions. And none of it gets us very far, and all of it loses sight of the larger narratives and the devastation to ordinary people. I'm not trying to be overly negative (honestly, I generally agree with you), but at some point the question needs to be asked, where is all of this debate getting us? And I'd say... not very far. Which is part of the problem... not the solution.

my upstairs neighbors are playing loud music. it's difficult to hear, and the vibration from the bass caused my coffee to fall off my desk and spill, burning me slightly.

so i think i'll go upstairs and slaughter them with a machete.

what else can i do? only my upstairs neighbors can end the cycle of loud music, rug stains, and mild coffee burns.

Actually, the Warsaw Ghetto isn't a bad analogy. Those same people who complain that Israel had no choice but to retaliate ("what else could they do?") must surely feel that the denizens of the Warsaw Ghetto had it coming to them, given their very act of uprising...

And act of war is an act of war

You mean, like a blockade?

"How can Israel end the cycle of violence when Hamas refuses to recognize its right to exist, much less the need to disarm?"

How can Hamas end the cycle of violence when the isolation and collective punishment continue regardless of whether a ceasefire is in place or not? How can Hamas end the cycle of violence when advocates of ethnic cleansing reside in the Israeli government? How can Hamas end the cycle of violence when Israel's opening offer is, basically, "renounce your right of self-defense and submit to collective punishment, THEN we can talk"?

Your notion of peacemaking is basically that one side completely capitulate. If that is what you really want then say so, at least we'll have an honest baseline for discussion.

How can Israel end the cycle of violence when Hamas refuses to recognize its right to exist, much less the need to disarm?

I'll basically just copy-paste something I wrote in a comment at Balloon Juice, since it seems just as relevant here if not more.

Why does Hamas acknowledging Israel's right to exist have to come first at all? Why not as part of the final settlement, or as a halfway step between the two-state solution and some modest first step like a cease-fire with some boilerplate agreements on the most basic common ground?

Demanding recognition of Israel before anyone pursues any kind of diplomacy is just trying to set unilateral concessions as a precondition to negotiation. It’s stupid and self-defeating when the U.S. government insists that Iran prove it has dismantled its nuclear program before we’ll even talk to them, and it’s stupid between Israel and Palestine too.

This is hilarious.

Do you idiots really think that America will have Israeli's back forever? It's a vestigial relic the cold war propped up by a tiny constituencies in both parties. I doubt it will last a generation or two, and the media is quickly losing the requisite trust among the populace to brainwash any more generations into blindly following the elite-party line.

Someday, probably with the next 20 years, some idiot of a president will start a war on Israel's behalf. We'll get bogged down the Iraq War II/the IRanian War or whatever, and then it will be over. There will be no 'special' relationship anymore.

If you people had brains in your pathetic, histrionic heads, you'd make peace now while you're strong. But you won't, so in 100 years there won't likely even be an Israel.

And that will be history's punchline on a joke of a culture that didn't know when to stop fighting.

Pretend, just for a second, that those who control Canada were sending rockets into NYC......

And Ezra wants to ignore it...

In this post, you give Hamaas a pass and tell your readers that it's OK to send rockets into Israel and that they should have no response.

Uh, help us out here, El V. Maybe you could quote the word, or consecutive sequence of words that gave you that impression?

I read the post too, and Ezra seemed to me to making a straightforward point about how Israel is playing into Hamas' hands. Didn't see the part where he says, "It's cool for Hamas to shoot rockets at Israel" or "Israel shouldn't do anything productive."

Maybe I need a decoder ring?

Were the Hamas rockets actually killing lots of people? I was under the impression that they weren't. Under those circumstances, the right response would probably be to drop a bomb on some uninhabited part of Palestine that wouldn't kill anybody.

I read the post too, and Ezra seemed to me to making a straightforward point about how Israel is playing into Hamas' hands.

The point is, Israel's mere existence plays into Hamas's hands. Given that, everything Israel does works against them.

Giving them a veto card over the peace process is assuring their triumph.

It also assures Israel that it can put off the tough decisions -- dealing with fucktard settlers in the West Bank, for one -- until the 'facts on the ground' change. Except that those facts will never change enough to make the decisions any less tough. At best, there will be more Palestinians living in smaller, more fragmented regions. Perhaps Sheldon Adelson can call them 'reservations' and open casinos there.

And Vajima's fantasy scenario suggests that he flunked elementary school geography.

This is ridiculous. Ezra is spot on: Israel has tried, again and again, to end conflict with Hamas and other organizations in decisive military fashion. How can the same military that conducted the brief invasion of Lebanon against Hezbollah just a few years ago be doing the same thing in Gaza? The odds of Hamas emerging strengthened, just as Hezbollah did, are astounding.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has morphed from one over statehood to one over existential ideology; history shows us that when one takes a maximalist approach to ideology, only two avenues open themselves: either a complete military campaign to stamp the life out of all vestiges of that ideology, or a campaign of co-option. Given the very circumstances that led to the creation of the Israeli state, Israelis are understandably and to their credit averse to the first option.

They've yet to really try the second, which would require them to divide and conquer by climbing into bed with Fatah.

"How can Israel end the cycle of violence when Hamas refuses to recognize its right to exist, much less the need to disarm?"

Why is it that Israel is never asked to accept the right of Palestine to exist? Shouldn't this have to be reciprocal? They are currently in the process of ensuring that Palestine never exists as a coherent nation. We tend to consider the Israelis to be the reasonable actors. Why can't they behave like it?

But Israel cannot be in the business of responding to every act of violent provocation Hamas can engineer. Saying that only Hamas can end the violence is another way of saying that they have total control over the situation. Hamas may never cease mounting violent attacks. They live off Palestinian hatred of Israel.

This is true, and would matter if Hamas was not the elected government of the Palestinian people. If Hamas was a terrorist group that was largely unsupported by the Palistantian population, Israel's actions would be totally unwarranted.

Given that they actually legally represent Palestinians, Israel's expectation that the political party which governs Gaza acknowledge their right to continued existence is pretty reasonable.

Keep up the good work, Ezra. You're right, of course. It isn't hard to see that an endless cycle of violence needs to be reconsidered at somewhat of a ground, base level.

And kudos for your prescient (if easy) prediction on the responses you would get.

I would personally feel embarrassed to be so predictable.

"Pretend, just for a second, that those who control Canada were sending rockets into NYC......"

If we were surrounding Canada with an economic blockade and starving them out of existence, they'd be justified in doing so.

"The point is, Israel's mere existence plays into Hamas's hands. Given that, everything Israel does works against them."

Not true. Remember, there are other factions. When Israel was negotiating in somewhat good faith with the PLO, Hamas was marginalized. Hamas gained power when Israel tried to violently marginalize Arafat. It is possible that Israel could marginalize Hamas with their current actions, but only a more radical organization will take its place. Anyone want to see Al Qaeda in Palestine? Israel is doing whatever it can to create that organization. If you want to strengthen your opponents moderates, you need to act moderately. If you want to strengthen the radicals, violence is the answer. This isn't just a question of Israel's existence, it's also a question of their behavior. Their behavior creates real anger that Hamas can feed on. Without that anger that Israel insists on enhancing, Hamas simply can't exist and a more moderate faction will rise to power.

If Hamas was a terrorist group that was largely unsupported by the Palistantian population, Israel's actions would be totally unwarranted.

And if Israel hadn't made determined attempts to delegitimize Fatah, Hamas wouldn't be in that position. Remember that batch of blowing shit up?

Let's not play "who started it". There are no good actors here. In recent years, Israel has embarked upon these stupid military hissy-fits rather than confronting its future. Hamas shoots rockets into Israel rather than confronting its future.

Ezra, I'm still waiting for your justification of the treatment of the Warsaw Ghetto. Put up or shut up baby. Oops, sorry, I meant EZRA, I'M STILL WAITING FOR YOUR JUSTIFICATION OF THE TREATMENT OF THE WARSAW GHETTO!!!!! STOP CHOP STICKBALL!!!!

Do you idiots really think that America will have Israeli's back forever? It's a vestigial relic the cold war propped up by a tiny constituencies in both parties.

One of the points of America having Israel's back is to prevent Israel from doing anything stupid, since Israel has the assurance the the US will keep Israel secure before anything gets out of hand.

At best, I think the solution is "controlled retaliation." Palestinians get to shoot off their non-lethal, poorly targetted rockets, and we negotiate with them to ensure they only get targetted at military outposts iwth perhaps some exceptions made for illegal settlements. Israel gets to retaliate against Hamas targets. Hamas gets to feel like they're fighting the occupiers. Israelis get to feel as though they're engaging in righteous retaliation. The US keeps both sides from spiralling out of control, and this is allowed to continue until conditions change to a point where a peaceful settlement is possible. Forcing a premature settlement or premature ceasefire isn't useful, it seems and appears to give each side reason to feel victimized if they feel they aren't "allowed" to attack.

"If we were surrounding Canada with an economic blockade and starving them out of existence, they'd be justified in doing so."

And there it is. Finally somebody with the guts to say that attacking Israel is OK. Klein won't say it, although he clearly thinks so. So what's his answer for what Israel should do? Nothing, right? BTW, what makes these rockets "non-lethal"? Luck?

Vidor, quit trying to inflate that straw man. Nobody here is a Hamas fan, but many of us live in a country long allied with Israel. Few of us know anyone who's lived in Gaza, most of us know someone who's spent time in Israel.

The issue is a strict, realpolitik question. Was this a good move for us and for our ally? I assert it was a terrible strategic move.

I mean, unless you're the Hamas fan. In which case, it maybe explains your rhetoric. English wasn't my first language, either.

Yes, let's start making ahistorical, completely decontextualized parallels between Israel-Palestine and US-Canada. Look -- something shiny!!!

Giving them a veto card over the peace process is assuring their triumph.

What needs to be recognized is that Israel wants Hamas to retain this veto power over the entire peace process, as it legitimates the refusal of the Israeli establishment to reckon with its own internal contradictions - such as that between the still-potent Zionist ideal of a Greater Israel (hence, the ever-expanding settlements) and the ideals of an enlightened democracy - as any such reckoning would be traumatic for Israeli civil society (imagine the consequences, replete with arresting media imagery, of the necessary dismantling of the settlements, including the many towns that have arisen on confiscated Palestinian land over the past two decades). Rather than deal with its own internal contradictions, Israel goads the Palestinians into fucking up - they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity - so that the status quo need never be disrupted.

If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

These aren't my words -- they're Barack Obama's. But I attach myself to this sentiment. Obama said this in July, after visiting the southern Israeli town of Sderot. Visits to Sderot will do that for you -- make you see things clearly. For what it's worth, this is how I see what's happening in Gaza: In 2005, the Israeli government acceded to the longstanding Arab demand to withdraw its settlers and soldiers from the Gaza Strip. Almost as soon as the Israeli withdrawal was completed, Hamas and other Islamist factions in Gaza began firing rockets at Israeli civilians living in towns and kibbutzim inside the pre-1967 borders of Israel. Sometimes -- and I've seen this with my own eyes -- Hamas rocketeers fired on Israel from atop the ruins of the abandoned Jewish settlements.

No country in the world could afford to ignore such attacks. And no country would. An elected government, such as Israel's, has a basic, overriding responsibility -- to protect its citizens from the organized violence of their enemies. Of course, it can do this in part by negotiating with its enemies (assuming its enemies recognize Israel's right to life) but its immediate mission must be to stop the violence, which is what Israel is now trying to do. Whether it succeeds or not is an open question (It is Hamas' indifference to Palestinian life, not Jewish life, that makes it a formidable foe, in the manner of Hezbollah) , but Israel must try to use all of the tools of national power to stop attacks on its citizens. Otherwise it is simply not a serious nation, one that does not deserve sovereignty.

Well said. And where is Obama in all this? If the Israeli strikes are the most evil thing imaginable, why doesn't he speak out, even though he is vacationing at a 30 million dollar property ?

Could the Gaza attack be all about getting in one last dirty lick to the Palestinians before Bush leaves office -- in case Obama might have objections to same?

Maximos, you're aware this has already happened in Gaza? It's already reckoning.

So what you're really saying is:

After Israel reckoned with itself, it then deliberately aided its enemies in destroying the peace process, so that they could avoid reckoning with itself.

Does this make sense?

These aren't my words -- they're Barack Obama's. But I attach myself to this sentiment.

Attach yourself to this:

An Israeli bomb struck the refugee camp's Imad Aqil mosque around midnight, destroying the building and collapsing several shops and a pharmacy nearby. The force of the blast was so massive it also brought down the Balousha family's house, which yesterday lay in ruins. The seven eldest girls were asleep together on mattresses in one bedroom and they bore the brunt of the explosion. Five were killed where they lay: Tahrir, 17, Ikram 15, Samer, 13, Dina, eight and Jawahar, four.

Israel must try to use all of the tools of national power to stop attacks on its citizens. Otherwise it is simply not a serious nation, one that does not deserve sovereignty.

Clearly, this is where the British government failed so miserably in its efforts to bring peace to Northern Ireland. Oh.

"If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

Jeff, Barack, whoever: The question then becomes, is what Israel is doing likely to stop the attacks? Has it not already failed to do so?

"Do everything in my power" does not mean "kill everyone I could."

"No country in the world could afford to ignore such attacks."

Sure. And "no people in the world could afford to ignore" Israel's willful breaking of the Egypt-negotiated ceasefire and horrifically damaging blockade of Gaza....

Oh, wait, I don't think Barack Obama -- or Jeff G -- wants or is mentally capable of imagining the vantage point of a *Palestinian* father whose young daughter is unable to get life-saving medicine. Those people are sub-human.

So right, keep the bombs raining on the sub-humans, Israel. Rah rah.

"Nobody here is a Hamas fan"

See, that's the thing. I think some are. Maybe not Klein, although he seems pretty OK with attacks on Israel. But some are.

Anon 11:39 -

You're aware, are you not, that this reckoning has not extended to the creation of a viable Palestinian state, to encompass both the West Bank and Gaza, a process which will entail the much more difficult reckoning with the settler movement (and the political parties and religious factions that represent it, not to mention the millions of dollars that stream into it from America) in the West Bank? It was the refusal of Israel to countenance such developments that enfeebled the Fatah government in the West Bank, and produced the radicalism that brought forth the Hamas government in Gaza, so perhaps Israel will also have to reconcile itself to the impossibility of dictating regime outcomes.

Until these things happen, the Israeli reckoning will remain prospective, in no way an actual political fact.

Have the Isrelis and Palestinians completely dehumanized each other yet? They (at leat the most radicalized factions of each side) have reduced the equation to a simple "Us" vs. "Them" mentality, each side views the other as a monster. Therefore, to give in is to admit defeat, to lose meaning to any past blood spilled. They seem locked in a struggle that sees no ending; Israel has the superior weapons but cannot ever end the violence from the Palestinians without committing genocide. Palestinians cannot win over Israels vast military superiority, but can succed in continuing the fight as long as there is enough oppression and sorrow caused by Israel toward the Palestinian people.

"Do everything in my power" does not mean "kill everyone I could."

What are you, some kind of hippie?

If someone was sending rockets on my house where my daughters were sleeping at night, I would do everything to stop it, and I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

Sure, and if someone was bombing the house where your daughter's slept, you would do everything to stop it, and you would expect Palestinians to do the same thing.

And so here we are.

"Nobody here is a Hamas fan"

See, that's the thing. I think some are.

Nobody besides Vidor talks about being a Hamas fan. Vidor is convinced there are Hamas fans in this comments thread. Ergo, Vidor is a Hamas fan. QED.

Please tell us, my man, about the glory and power of Hamas.

Try not to erect any more straw men.

We can wank back and forth forever about what's 'justified.' The problem is that what's 'justified' may or may not be what works, and I think the last fifty years or so proves that what the Israelis have tried does not work.

Now in its fourth day, Obama has nothing to say about the crime of the century. Why is that?

"But Israel cannot be in the business of responding to every act of violent provocation Hamas can engineer."

Every act? How many hundreds of rockets have been hurled at Israel prior to this response?

You mean, like a blockade?

What led to the blockade? Suicide bombers? Weapons and supplies to make bombs being smuggled to those who want to use them against Israel?

"my upstairs neighbors are playing loud music. it's difficult to hear, and the vibration from the bass caused my coffee to fall off my desk and spill, burning me slightly.

so i think i'll go upstairs and slaughter them with a machete.

what else can i do? only my upstairs neighbors can end the cycle of loud music, rug stains, and mild coffee burns."

You're just an idiot. If your neighbors were throwing pipe bombs into your apartment, blowing off one of your hands, blowing off your mother's leg and killing your infant nephew would be a better analogy. Do you think hacking those neighbors to death would justified?

"the right response would probably be to drop a bomb on some uninhabited part of Palestine that wouldn't kill anybody."

I would like to think this is a joke, but given the writer, I am sure it isn't. You and John Edwards deserve each other. You gonna work for his 2016 campaign neil? He should be settled in with his mistress and little boy by then. Fine, respectable and upstanding John Edwards in 2016.

It seems pretty simple. If Israel's enemies would quit attacking Israel, there would be peace. Israel is not the one breaking the peace. The day, the very day Israel turned control of Gaza over to the Palestinians in exchange for peace, rockets were launched from Gaza at Israel. Libraries, power plants and schools in Gaza were destroyed and bomb and rocket making facilities were built.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Iran, Hezbollah and much of the Arab world has no interest in peace with Israel, only in the destruction of Israel. Thank God Israel is so superior to her enemies, otherwise many of you clowns would be justifying the the slaughter of millions of Jews by the Muslim freedom fighters.

The odds of Hamas emerging strengthened, just as Hezbollah did, are astounding.

Since the invasion of Lebanon, Hezbollah has stopped attacking Israel. If Israel has that level of success in Gaza, I think they'll be pleased.

Obama spoke out about the Mumbai bombings right away. Where is this essential voice now? Even though he is enjoying golfing at an exclusive club, and staying in a 30 million mansion, he still could say something. "We are all called upon to sacrifice..." (get me my clubs)...."millions of jobs lost next year.." (hey, is there a separate key to the poolhouse?) "we are all in it together..."