Man, it'd be so sweet if Obama somehow won in Florida. And by sweet I mean: absolutely hilarious. Please God, Please? I know it's asking a lot, but c'mon!

Oh, and a question about all those absentee votes that have already been cast: are these absentee votes by mail? If so, have they already begun the tallying, or will that begin today? (I.e. when will we know for sure who won considering the large number of absentee votes?)

I agree it was a bad call for the DNC to disenfranchise voters in Florida

Once more, with feeling: The DNC did not disenfranchise voters in Florida.

The Florida Democrats had 30 days to bring their primary into compliance with the delegate selection rules that all the DNC members agreed to.

The Florida Democrats--led by Karen Thurman, Dan Gelber, Jeremy Ring--refused. Florida made no effort to abide by the rules.

The DNC enforced the rules and Florida lost its delegates. If any entity disenfranchised the voters, it was the state of Florida.

Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?

You can say it till you're blue in the face, corinne, it doesn't matter. The people who come out to vote today didn't have a say in the primary calendar.

They'll feel like their votes were stolen if the party refuses to count them. And these are voters who already believe their vote was stolen by political games in the past.

Jinchi,
Did you express your concerns to Karen Thurman, Dan Gelber, or Jeremy Ring?
Did you write a letter to the DNC?
If not, why?

The people who come out to vote today didn't have a say in the primary calendar.

Neither did I and I don't vote until February 12, which is a damn sight better than the June primary in 2004, when it was a given that Kerry was the nominee. Talk about a token vote.

However the DNC members, who represent every state and territory in the US, did agree to the primary calendar and they're supposed to represent you.

If you're that troubled take it up with Karen Thurman. Then find some primary challengers for the Florida democrats who helped disenfranchise you.

If you're that troubled take it up with Karen Thurman.

I think I speak for the majority of voters in America when I say "Who the heck is Karen Thurman and why does she control whether my vote counts?"

Most Americans are under the impression that they live in a democracy where one-person-one-vote is the normal rule. They don't take kindly when the see insiders carve up the electorate to their own ends. These decisions are made by political actors with political agendas largely out of sight.

And for clarification I'm not a Florida voter, nor do I find Hillary's sudden concern very convincing. But I do know people. If a million people vote in Florida for the Democratic nominee and they're told those votes are garbage - they're going to be pissed off, no matter who screwed up.

That was an outcome that should have been patently obvious when the stupid decision was made last August.

I'd like to see caucuses for FL and MI later in the season, because it's important for these states to be included in the totals. Give all the candidates time to campaign, count the votes, but have fair rules about it.

But it is important to remember that this isn't an official government vote going on -- this is just the party's way of selecting their candidate.

I mean come on. When this no campaign pledge was made and the DNC had made the decision to punish Floriday by refusing to seat their delegates, did ANYONE ACTUALLY BELIEVE they would carry through with the threat? Did anyone actually think that once IA,NH,SC,and NV were finished, the DNC would want to alienate Dem voters in one of the hottest battleground states? The decision to sign the pledge to not campaign was political and the decision on Hillary to make hay about the results was political. THERE IS NO PRINCIPLE INVOLVED HERE. This was and always has been political. Two points should be made: 1) Hillary never pledged not to recognize the importance of the results. She pledged not to campaign and has largely adhered to that pledge. Are you seriously asking a political campaign in a heated primary not to brag about what will surely be a convincing victory? 2) To dismiss this as a beauty contest largely centered on name recognition is patently absurd. This campaign has been going on for a year now. The voters that will turn out tomorrow are likely very motivated and relatively high information. They have seen the arguments and weighed the issues. This is not Dec of 2006. Name recognition plays no role. These are decisions that have been made in the presence of extraordinary media exposure for both candidates.
Finally--I'd just like to say that the only principle involved here is whether the DNC is going to decide to disenfranchise hundreds of thousands of voters or cave to states that have already gotten all the tourism dollars and media attention that they crave. That is the only principle at issue.

When this no campaign pledge was made and the DNC had made the decision to punish Floriday by refusing to seat their delegates, did ANYONE ACTUALLY BELIEVE they would carry through with the threat? Did anyone actually think that once IA,NH,SC,and NV were finished, the DNC would want to alienate Dem voters in one of the hottest battleground states?

Exactly. Dean's only in this position because the race is so tight. That Obama insists on enforcing rules that I don't think the DNC ever had any intention of enforcing (the real punishment is the lack of campaigning and the $$ is brings) is every bit as disengenuous and political as Clinton's wanting Florida to count. It just has the added "benefit" of preventing a large, key state's democrats from participating in the nominating process.

I guess the surest way to get progressive voices to argue against counting democratic votes is to make it help Hillary and hurt Obama. If this was the other way around, would there be such a love of rules coming from so-called progressive commentaries? Or would we be reading how those damn dirty Clintons don't want every vote to count. They'll do anything to win!

As for Hillary being desperate, I seriously doubt that. She's been called everthing from a racist to the C-word the last two weeks by the media, Republican operatives and the Obama campaign and she's still leading by 9 points in the daily tracking poll and is poised to kick Obama's behind on Super Tuesday.

Do I think Clinton cares about delegates because most of them are likely to be hers? Of course. Just as I don't believe Obama would be Mr. Rules if he expected to win Florida. That's politics.

As for when Clinton has raised the issue, I'd say she's in one of those "Heads you win, tails I lose" positions. She couldn't do it when the decision was first announced without undermining Dean and the DNC and alienating NH and Iowa voters. She also probably expected as many did that the delegates would eventually be seated. She can't wait until after the Florida primary because if she wins, then it will be seen as her calling for it ONLY because she won. Basically, no matter when she made the argument, she was screwed.

As for the Obama campaign, they already tried to limit Michigan's impact by taking his name off the ballot, presumably because he thought he couldn't win there and didn't want Clinton to gain any momentum.

Now Obama is trying to discount the Florida popular vote, saying even that is meaningless. As if it simply doesn't matter that one of the most populous states in the nation prefers Clinton to him. For a guy who is supposed to be winning, he sure seems to want to make sure that certain states - and their voters - don't count.

Of course, if Obama happens to win tonight, then I expect a full 180 from his camp on what Florida means and what should and should not count. At least Clinton argued for counting all votes before the voting took place.

As for the Obama campaign, they already tried to limit Michigan's impact by taking his name off the ballot, presumably because he thought he couldn't win there and didn't want Clinton to gain any momentum.

So why is he on the ballot in NY?

I think Obama was foolish to take his name off the ballot, but he didn't do it in the calculated way you think. The delegates are awarded proportionally and even 30-40% of the delegates from Michigan would have been welcome.

Considering 40% of the vote in an uncontested primary went to "Uncommitted" I don't think there's any reason to believe he'd have done poorly.

Via a commenter at TalkLeft, from a September 2007 Tampa news report:

Published: September 30, 2007 TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama, clearly a man of principle, unlike that damned politician Hillary Clinton!

For completely unbelievable explanations (from the NYTimes):

Asked why the campaign hadn’t urged for such a move before, Howard Wolfson, one of the senator’s top advisers, said, “I think there was a widespread expectation when the D.N.C. made its decision that voters in Florida would not participate.”

Obama is the new Bush. THE NEW BUSH! He has a fuzzy past of questions not being asked, he claims to not be a politician and a uniter not a divider, he's a good speaker when fed lines but doesn't have the capacity to lead.

Clinton is a proven leader, united republicans and democrats and has won Florida with the hispanic vote, which Obama is NOT focused on. Hillary is a true centrist, which is exactly what this county needs.

CLINTON '08! I WILL HELP YOU!

Hillary's win is a solid one.
It keeps her on top in the eyes of the voters.
Obama talks of change, but says little about how he will change things.
There are too many questions about Obama, and red flags are going up around him.
We know Hillary, but do we know the real Obama?

George Vreeland Hill

It is so funny to see Obama supporters making excuses and spouting sour grapes remarks because Hillary won in Florida. I guess that her win there removes the excuses that Obama and Edwards were not on the ballot. Face it folks - Hillary won - delegates or not. It is Obama that violated the DNC rules in Florida by airing ads (yes relative of mine saw them). You Obama supporters need to stop spouting nonsense and be fair.
Go Hillary!! California will also hand you a win as big as in Florida next week. My family of 8 (yes all 8 of us and all eligible to vote for you) will definitely be voting for you on Feb 5 in the California primary. We are sick of the biased media reporting, the Obama rethoric (as well his supporters) and all the negative comments about you in blogs.
We know how you have received results and have weathered all the unfair media and right wing attacks all these years and we will support you. We are a well educated family (3 of us have Phds) and we are all educated on what you have done.
We will also be donating to your campaign.
HILLARY 08!

Thank you for the great post sesli sohbet