Dana:

Since you are a believer in affirmative action programs, do you believe that Obama's children should be given an advantage over your child in college admissions simply because they are "black"?

"For more on that looming struggle -- and its potential effect on a presidential race that will surely include either a black man or a woman -- check on my report from last year."

We already see Obama forced to acknowledge white resentment in his speech yesterday. That's the track they're going to have to take, and into a "universal" discussion of the economy. I don't think McCain wants to discuss *that* aspect of the economy any more than O and HRC want to discuss race and gender in the general election. It will probably come down to talking taxes, as usual. And Hillary will take her shoe off and pound the desk on her universal healthcare swindle.

Chicounsel,
Ending affirmative action primarily disadvantages *low-income* people of color, not "Obama's children." For example, the valedictorian of an inner city high school that offered no Advanced Placement classes, and is not now eligible to receive a leg-up in the admissions or financial aid process to account for her circumstances.

Also, it's important to remember that ending affirmative action affects a lot more than just elite college admissions. In Colorado for example, the state runs a program to introduce high school girls of color to careers in science, and another program to help women and people of color apply for government contracts. These programs would become illegal if Connerly's "Civil Rights Initiative" passes there in November.

"(White women are the leading beneficiaries of affirmative action policies.)"

You must mean in business contracts, then, because it's not in college admissions. But, are you *sure* they're really benefitting from AA or are they just *underbidding*?

I'd be willing to bet my entire retirement account that they're underbidding.

I live in Lincoln, Nebraska, and wander over to the legislature for work from time to time. I'm pleased to say that for all of Ward Connerly's attempts to push an anti-A.A. bill, the senator who sponsored it had to withdraw it under pressure from his colleagues, who said they wouldn't sign on to any of his other efforts if he continued. So that bill is dead.

And Chi: sure, I believe that the children of some minority families should have an advantage over my kids. I'm white, lower middle class, fairly comfortable in a midwestern state. The disadvantage created by affirmative action in a situation like college admissions has got *nothing* on the advantages that they will have every day in dealing with colleges, employers, neighbors, and law enforcement, simply because they're white. I hardly think that I can call them underprivileged because of Affirmative Action considerations in a few, limited arenas.

1. Couldn't Nebraskan's issues be dealt with in a way that wouldn't disadvantage others? In the oldentimes people with similar issues would simply privately self-flaggelate.

2. I'm trying to figure out exactly why CO (Boulder?) needs a very special program just to "introduce high school girls of color to careers in science". Is it a very special kind of science? Perhaps with revolutionary consciousness? Since science is science, it would seem like a simple program to introduce careers to just high school girls or just high school students would suffice. Unless, of course, something else is involved.

...Proposal 2, of course, effectively overturned the Supreme Court's 2003 decision in support of the limited use of race as a factor in the University of Michigan's admissions decisions. Now the admissions committee cannot consider race at all, a change that when affected in California (thanks to Connerly's Proposition 209) led to hundreds fewer students of color enrolling at UC-Berkeley and UCLA annually.

Good news, indeed!

We will never get over the race issue until we decide to get over the race issue. If you want poor people to have a disproportionate advantage, then do a means test and give it to 'em.

Affirmative Action is a nice word for "acceptable government-sponsored racism"

Ending affirmative action primarily disadvantages *low-income* people of color, not "Obama's children." For example, the valedictorian of an inner city high school that offered no Advanced Placement classes, and is not now eligible to receive a leg-up in the admissions or financial aid process to account for her circumstances.

Dana, with respect, you are wrong about this-- at least as to elite institutions where affirmative action has real bite. (At less elite institutions, the effect of affirmative action is more marginal because plenty of minorities would enroll without it. For instance, after Prop 209 banned affirmative action in California, minority enrollment plummeted at Berkeley and UCLA but didn't dip as much at the CSU's.)

The effect of affirmative action at elite institutions is generally to let in more of the children of black and hispanic professionals, the black and hispanic students who went to good high schools. It is rare for a student from Compton or Watts or the worst parts of the Bronx to get into an elite university through affirmative action. Indeed, this is how the schools want it-- there are financial and classist reasons why they really don't want a lot of poor people in their entering classes.

There have been attempts for at least 20 years, from conservatives like Dinesh D'Souza and liberals like Richard Kahlenberg, to try and get elite universities to let in more low income folks. They haven't worked.

"You must mean in business contracts, then, because it's not in college admissions. But, are you *sure* they're really benefitting from AA or are they just *underbidding*?"

Most large corporations have supplier diversity programs, which encourage awarding contracts to certified female and/or minority owned firms. Female-owned businesses often get a larger share of these contracts than minorites. Contracts are NOT necessarily awarded to the lowest bidder, as lowest price is not always the most important criteria.

If you believe in non discrimination then you cannot support affirmative action. What ever justification you use, its using race or gender as its basis. It is against the law and disenfranchising to the American people.