In addition to making sure that women have access to jobs that currently pay more, how about making it so that caring jobs that have been traditionally filled by women are decently paid and have better status.

The lowest paid jobs, and the jobs most people have, make a

You look at a country where the household median is 40k, and realize that most households are 2 income households. Then you realize that we have truly massive income inequality, and you realize the modal income is more like 30k. 17k is a decent job in that world. You know, the world we all actually live in.

It must be nice living a life of privilege and relative luxury where you can look at an average job and call it 'among the poorest paying'. If you had to live in the same world as the rest of us, you would know better.

"Caring" work and other pink-collar jobs pay poorly because they're overcrowded. Women without BAs or other special qualifications are crowded into these jobs because they can't get into the much wider range of non-college degree requiring male identified occupations.

If you make a wider range of jobs, including unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled blue collar jobs de facto available to women, as they now are not, working class women will go for them, relieving overcrowding in pink-collar occupations, relieving overcrowding, and raising wages.

If you don't believe this will happen, consider the experience of WWII when, without consciousness raising or feminist therapy, millions of working class women went into blue collar jobs--simply because the word was put out that women would now be hired for such jobs.

I get so sick and tired about the pay gap between men and women.

Yes, it is real. but the real part of the gap is small.

Women choose lower paying fields. Women choose to stay home more with the kids. Women are the people who have the primary responsibility for the kids.

Yes, I know I just made a bunch of generalizations. But the facts are still true for American society as a whole.

Women marry people of the same or higher education. Not every woman but most woman. Of course, this is going to change because women now get the majority of graduate and undergraduate degrees.

Given the choice, I would rather stay home and take care of the kids but my high school educated wife earns 20% of what I do and we couldn't afford for me to work part time.

go ahead and flame me

I get so sick and tired about the pay gap between men and women.

Yes, it is real. but the real part of the gap is small.

Women choose lower paying fields. Women choose to stay home more with the kids. Women are the people who have the primary responsibility for the kids.

Yes, I know I just made a bunch of generalizations. But the facts are still true for American society as a whole.

Women marry people of the same or higher education. Not every woman but most woman. Of course, this is going to change because women now get the majority of graduate and undergraduate degrees.

Given the choice, I would rather stay home and take care of the kids but my high school educated wife earns 20% of what I do and we couldn't afford for me to work part time.

go ahead and flame me

I would give more credence to the pay gap if women's groups didn't continue to lie about the statistics. Sure, there are professions that are sexist but a lot of women prefer the part-time status which throws the numbers off.

so, let me get this right. MEN, who have done the most DANGEROUS work in America FOREVER. you know, horrifying deaths, shocking maimings, etc., etc., yet, shocker of all shocks here.......WOMEN are the victims. UH HUH. where have women and mens' voices been over the hundreds of years of male deaths and injuries on the job? NOWHERE. if women want to get in on this money, then get off of your lazy, whining, coddled butts and apply for the same work that men have had to for ever. and while you're at it, sign up for combat service or any dangerous role in the military, too. the 4,000+ young MEN who have been KILLED sadly can't apply for ANY job at this point and the tens of thousands more who have been injured in this sickening war would LOVE to have the advatags that poor, poor victimized women have. give me a break.

soullite: Let's break this down. $17k a year works out to about $1416 a month. Where I live, a cheap one-bedroom apartment starts at about $950 a month. To a person supporting herself, that means after taxes she has about $200 a month left over to pay for food, utilities, and transportation. Never mind clothes. Never mind entertainment. Never mind restaurant meals once in a while. This is a very real problem. Don't minimize it.

Where are all these angry nasty men coming from? Did Rush link to this story?

"propitiousnessmoment", no matter what the the options you detail for women, you conveniently leave out the fact that you, as a woman, can finagle most ANYTHING from a man, e.g. free meals, drinks, etc., find relieve from a multitude of social service programs for women, and otherwise avail yourself of the vast array of other services that are made available for poor victimized women, e.g college degree programs for women paid for by MEN's tax dollars. name one of those items that a MAN making what you list can access or that even exists for a MAN? answer: you cannot!

as for "susan"- your post decrying "nasty angry men" as a response to the deaths of thousands of young boys in a stupid war, the injuries to tens of thousands of others, and the dangerous jobs that are taken by MEN only shows how utterly, despicably coddled and entitled your type is. even the grievous death of young boys and men does nothing to shake the focus from you, does it?

We've lost ground in the past few decades and it's going to take time and effort to educate people again. And the culture has only gotten nastier in recent years, as evidenced by angry male-identified responses to the idea of leveling the playing field. But change we must. And we will.

So fc, only men pay taxes, go to war or work in dangerous fields? You're way behind the times.

fc: you are deluded if you think there are all kinds of programs for single women with no children, that are any different than for single men.

fc: (continued) And, it is a lot harder for women with no education than for men with no education, to find jobs that will pay a living wage. And, go {expletive deleted} yourself if you think that all women are out there manipulating poor slobs for their money - just cuz you got burned once doesn't mean you can legitimately assign guilt to the whole of the female gender. AND learn how to read, you spelled my name wrong.

Lot of womens gets TAPPED fo' work where I comes frum. YO, thay gets there ASSES tapped! WHOOO, Dogee!

again, on the part of the serpent tongued females writing their venomous comments here, it's ALL ABOUT YOU , isn;t it? again, not a ONE of you has or WILL EVER acknowledge the profound sacrifices made by men and boys for hundreds of years, including the 4,000+ young men killed vs the handful of women killed in this current war. YOU are the HATERS who ruin this world for normal people. people who don't twist every event into yet ANOTHER way to turn women into great, big victims. puhlease. and as for spelling princess's name right, i wasn't paying much attention to your name. just your narcissist words, princess.

Look at this crap. I posted an innocuous comment suggesting that it would be good if women could get Rosie the Riveter jobs--good for women who chose to do those jobs and good for women who prefer traditional women's jobs. More choice for everyone. I said nothing about wage gaps, didn't "whine" as far as I can ascertain, or attack men--most of whom I like very much. I don't think anyone else did either.

Out come the Lads with the standard lines about lazy, whining women playing victim, attacking and manipulating men. Where does this junk come from? What is in these guys heads? It's odd that they can write, after a fashion, but don't seem able to read.

A lot of the comments here indicate why women's jobs are paid so much less: Just as we viewed contemptuously, so is our work, the things we tend to be particularly skilled at, our competencies. And so it is paid little.

Construction workers make a lot more money than I do, but most of them could never do my pink-collar job, not even with a lot of training.

It's hard to believe that there are people who aren't aware that women in pink-collar jobs face many occupational dangers, including higher levels of destructive stress than the managers they work for and people in many other professions. And it's even harder to believe that some people haven't noticed that women are serving and dying in combat positions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It takes so little to bring out mindless female-bashing!

A little convenience store in the government building I work in still has greeting cards that carry blatant anti-Hilary highly sexist punchlines. I don't think I've ever seen a greeting card with a racist punchline, and I'm sure this store would be shut down if they carried the racist equivalent.

Posted by: fc | March 7, 2009 6:44 PM

Profound sacrifices?

What about the widows and children of the men who have died in Afghanistan/Iraq?

You think they have not sacrificed?

Officially women are still barred from direct combat duty although it has become more difficult to enforce with the Afghanistan/Iraq wars.

Which is why not enough women have died in the current wars to suit fc.

A fair wage for a job performed is important to both genders and everyone should be concerned about this.

One reason that might sway fc, but I doubt it, is that when large numbers of women do enter a field that has traditionally been male-dominated, wages tend to start declining for everyone in that field unless subject to the bargaining process.

When employers can hire women for substantially less than they pay men for the same work, they will tend to hire the more economical employee

dee- again, NOT a single word of compassion or recognition regarding the hundreds of years of brutal deaths, horrific maimings, endless/grueling/back-breaking made by young MEN- young male children even, NOT women, but from women like you and the others who have written here, it's all about you....forever. simply a despicably cold and brutally uncaring position. as one who has lost his own partner to death, i certainly don't need lectuyres from a coddled woman who's responses come from your "women's studies" manifestos. god bless the MEN and BOYS who do the bulk of the dirty work on this planet and if whining, coddled, entitled white bitter women want a piece of the pie, then go out and start building roads, buildings, working in sewers, etc., etc. instead of thinking your pathological, yet sadly societally supported narcissistic retorts mean anything to the MEN who have sacrificed so much, yet are nearly universally trashed by the likes of your kind. don't like the idea of MEN fighting back against your princess lives, do you?

I'd give men recognition for the things you mentioned if it wasn't forced on them by society throughout history.
Women weren't ALLOWED to be soldiers, weren't ALLOWED to work, and weren't ALLOWED to even wear fucking pants, which wasn't exactly helpful in getting a job in construction or something of that caliber.

cure, charlie- but they ARE allowed to murder 1,2,3,4, even 5 of their own children and walk free, blow their jhusbands away with a shotgun blast through the back (in FRONT of their young children) and still be SEEN as the victim.......oh yes, and walk away. whine about anything and everything, and have MEN like you continue the charade that they are such victims, even as the statistics regarding men and boys i cite STILL stare anyone who is looking in the face. yetm again, not ONE WORD OF COMPASSION TOWARDS those men and boys and the other just like them doing the hard work that they do, cause it's all about the "victim" women, uh huh? alice in wonderland anyone?

I have the greatest compassion for MEN who do dirty work, MEN who risk their lives and lose them in combat, MEN who assume responsibility as primary breadwinners for their families--MEN who assume those traditionally male burdens.

But it seems to me that it is in MEN's interests to promote gender equality to lighten that load. MEN who feel overburdened should support anti-discrimination programs that enable women to get those dirty, dangerous jobs which have to be done and recognize that it is in their interest to reject the assumption that they have some special responsibility to provide financial support for women.

Enough of this wage gap fallacy. The 'wage gap' is based on different choices men and women make in their lives. Men generally work more hours, commute longer, and make up the vast majority of hazardous professions. Dangerous jobs pay more. 92% of work place deaths are men. Women often leave the work force for extended period of time to care for children. When you temporally leave your job your going to lose out on pay increases.

Hey women,
Let's not get side tracked by spoolies/spammers/trolls...or angry men. MEN live and then they die. Big deal.

Where are all these angry nasty men coming from?

That would be your new post-partisan democratic party.

Obama = change.

as for "susan"- your post decrying "nasty angry men" as a response to the deaths of thousands of young boys in a stupid war, the injuries to tens of thousands of others, and the dangerous jobs that are taken by MEN only shows how utterly, despicably coddled and entitled your type is. even the grievous death of young boys and men does nothing to shake the focus from you, does it?

Fuck off. Who do you think is causing most of this death by war violence, idiot?

And you know what is really a dangerous job? Wife.

Fool.

not a ONE of you has or WILL EVER acknowledge the profound sacrifices made by men and boys for hundreds of years, including the 4,000+ young men killed vs the handful of women killed in this current war. YOU are the HATERS who ruin this world for normal people. people who don't twist every event into yet ANOTHER way to turn women into great, big victims.

You're wrong about a lot of this. In fact, I think every day about the men and women who've died at war. My husband deployed to Iraq in 2003. He came back fine, thankfully, but not a day went by while he was gone that I didn't think he could die any minute.

As for twisting events into a way to play "victim," did you not blame WOMEN for the spinelessness of men?

you, as a woman, can finagle most ANYTHING from a man, e.g. free meals, drinks, etc.,

Whose fault is it when a backbone is missing?

possessing a backbone vs shamelessly using MEN and SOCIETY in general at all times either under the guise of completely manipulatice victimhood or without the scruples of a snake to define which is wrong would be pretty clear to a normal person, male or female.

fc: First, please calm down. Second, you're right. Men do have to shoulder alot of society's burdens, and do alot of society's dirty work. I think part of the argument here is that they DO get recognized for that, whereas the work that women do (raising those young boys to become the men they are today, for example) does NOT get recognized as much. Where I live for example, the person who picks up my garbage gets paid $20,000 more per year than the average teacher in this area. You can argue that that isn't due to the fact that teaching and childcare is a female-dominated sphere, but I don't think you'd be able to find much support for that argument.