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DEBATE LIVEBLOGGING. Giuliani says it's "unthinkable we would've left Saddam Hussein in charge of Iraq." Romney basically agrees, and takes a shot at Harry Reid for good measure. The GOPers really support the war. They're not leaving any daylight between them and Bush at all.
Meanwhile, I just decided to confine my liveblogging to this post, so new updates in the space below.
7:13: Tommy Thompson -- whose hanging neck flesh is deeply distracting -- says we should demand the Maliki government call a vote on whether we should remain in Iraq.
7:15 If this election is to be decided on ties, Ron Paul is totally going to win. And Sam Brownback will be executed. Meanwhile, Paul got an ovation after his call for withdrawal. McCain got the other ovation for a stirring pro-war speech. Odd.
7:17 You know how they say some politicians come across as really human? Brownback comes across as really humanoid. Add in his magic technicolor tie, and I'm growing downright desperate for the GOP to nominate the martian guy. Maybe this lineup is more diverse than I thought....
7:20 The most telling element of this debate is that it's so taken for granted that the Republicans would preemptively attack Iran to disrupt their nuclear weapons program that Blitzer isn't even bothering to ask. Instead, he's asking if they'd use tactical nukes to do it. And they would! The nuttery astonishes. Meanwhile, Giuliani just accused the Democrats of being "in the 90s," still stuck in the Cold War. Someone should tell him when the Cold War ended. The vast majority of the 90s were post-Cold War, and the early-90s were post-perestroika.
7:25 Madcap immigration demagoguery from Tancredo. Says it's more important than anything else we've discussed so far, which means it's more important than Iraq, Iran, or the War on Terror. He gets an ovation for this.
7:39: Pizza Hut dough is surprisingly, even disconcertingly, sweet.
7:41 Does anybody really believe religion is a "very important" part of Giuliani's life? He seems like the type who would make holy water sizzle. And isn't he married to his third wife, who he had an adulterous relationship with, outside the church?
7:47 McCain thinks Americans should be exposed to "all theories." All children will now go to school until the end of time.
7:51 I'm getting bored and surfing the net. And so I ask you: What the hell is going on at The New York Times? And how come you Tapped commenters are so quiet? I have access to our traffic stats, I know you're out there!
7:57 I can't quite seem to parse Ron Paul's answer on don't ask, don't tell. I think he's mainly against the use of ball gags by servicemembers, but I could be wrong.
8:01 Tommy Thompson says he'd use George W. Bush to go on a lecture circuit to talk to...children about public service. He also says Bush is full of passion, and straightforwardness, and perserverance. It's hard to escape the sense that he's calling Bush an idiot. Meanwhile, Tancredo would tell Bush what Rove told him -- "never darken my door again."
8:18 McCain actually just said "I'm going to give you a little bit of straight talk." Unsurprisingly, there wasn't much of that.
8:21 Giuliani is very good at, and very shameless about, blurring Iraq and the War on Terror. His lines are lifted directly from March 2003. I'm not really sure if this sort of thing is still effective, but Giuliani is certainly going to give it a shot. Fearmongering isn't dead, not by a longshot.
8:25 Check out Andrew Sullivan on the shameful dodges, flip-flops, evasions, and cowardice the contenders displayed on gays in the military.
8:27 Giuliani is going to recreate health insurance in this country with a $15,000 tax deduction. Is he kidding? And now he's saying health insurance should be like homeowner's insurance. Yes, because what I'm really worried about is that my liver is going to get stolen.
8:30 Tommy Thompson is really excited to talk about health care. And he's talking prevention, rather than consumer-driven BS. He's my guy!
8:31 No, really, I've never seen anyone more excited to talk about anything than Thompson on health care. I think he's going to squeal. He makes me look bored by the subject.
8:32 Romney promises that he won't turn to Washington on health care. "Washington makes a mess. Washington is all talk." This guy's going to run some awesome government! Meanwhile, the Republicans really love saying "socialized medicine." Indeed, they're so quick the the descriptor, that one wonders if the Dems shouldn't just propose it. Might as well create some -- to borrow, and adapt, a term -- RetHon. Retroactive Honesty.
8:36 Giuliani appears to believe freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and freedom of speech all come from God. Why does Giuliani hate the Founding Fathers?
8:38 and I'm still going. I make Matt look weak and soft.
8:41 Romney's accused of being a flip-flopper. He's for making English the official language, but he has Spanish literature, a Spanish web site, and on it, videos of his kid speaking in Spanish. I also hear he loves chalupas. (As for his actual answer, it goes something like "dodge, dodge, evasion, dodge, flip-flop).
8:42 Tancredo promises he won't advertise in Spanish. "Believe me," he pleads. I do!
8:47 Romney is talking about the future, and is bright red. Crimson. Magenta. It's a hue I've rarely seen before, and even then, only on Bill Kristol, who occasionally looks like a tomato.
8:52 Tancredo has an odd idea of what it means to be an American. For instance: You must cut any and all ties to your old country. As Ana writes, "Tancredo wants to outlaw St. Patrick's Day." This may be just what Democrats need to resolidify their hold on the Catholic vote...
8:56 Jim Gilmore (who I've managed to ignore thus far) says, "when I first ran, they told me a conservative couldn't win in Virginia." Matt (sitting next to me): "Who told him that!? A conservative can't win in Virginia 14 years ago!? He needs better staff."
8:57 Hunter accuses Romney of "a strong step towards socialism" with his health care bill. Snap!
9:00 It's over! Thank God!
--Ezra Klein
COMMENTS (20)
And how come you Tapped commenters are so quiet? I have access to our traffic stats, I know you're out there!
er... hi!
(not actually watching the debate, so nothing to say)
Posted by: Mark | June 5, 2007 8:02 PM
what if one of these people actually becomes our next president.
...
Posted by: jacqueline | June 5, 2007 8:08 PM
Why didn't anyone get a chance to respond to Giuliani on abortion? Seems there shoulda been someone.
And they were allowed, on evolution, to completely skip the question.
The discussion of Iraq is both depressing and positive - they are all tying themselves inextricably to Bush's policy. It's scary that that's where the base is, but it's positive because it's going to be incredibly ahrd to win running on more of the same.
Posted by: DivGuy | June 5, 2007 8:12 PM
"And how come you Tapped commenters are so quiet? "
your brownback comments are so perfectly humorous that there's really no need to add anything. you're doing just fine on your own.
Posted by: winer | June 5, 2007 8:13 PM
"Pizza Hut dough is surprisingly, even disconcertingly, sweet."
Fast food gets loaded up on sugar, salt, and fat to cover for the lack of flavor and texture.
Posted by: Petey | June 5, 2007 8:19 PM
I love the "Walk Vaguely Menacingly Toward the Military Families" section of the debate.
What an utter mess this discussion of Iraq is. This will not sell, in the least, outside of the reality-challenged GOP primary electorate.
Posted by: DivGuy | June 5, 2007 8:22 PM
Ezra,
Thanks for watching so I don't have to.
Posted by: phil from new york | June 5, 2007 8:27 PM
Sure, but why think that any of this will have any impact once the primaries are over? There's plenty of time to pivot later.
Posted by: Tim O'Keefe | June 5, 2007 8:29 PM
It's interesting to me that the Republicans are feeling some of the pro-choice argument -- with regards to Republicans caring more about you when you're in the womb but not when you're really alive.
Posted by: ari | June 5, 2007 8:44 PM
PS - I hate all of Huckabee's positions, but damn does he say them well. He lost me, though, when he said that he was unsure about evolution. I say the next time he goes for a flu shot the doctor give him last year's version -- after all, who knows whether the virus evolved or not!
Posted by: ari | June 5, 2007 8:47 PM
Did Senator McCain actually compare the Iraq war to the Bosnia and Kosovo Wars? Of course he didn't say those were Bill Clinton's wars. A loss of life is never a positive thing but the Iraq war now ranks 10th on the list of all time casualties and is headed for the number 9 in a hurry. There were a total of 15 US Combat deaths in Kosovo and Bosnia combined. There have been over 2800 US military combat deaths, over 600 private contractor deaths and nearly 30,000 wounded (on the low side) in Iraq.
Posted by: Dan Balfour | June 5, 2007 8:50 PM
This is much more fun than the actual debate.
My question to the candidates would be when the U.S. will attack Zimbabwe, a country which has a dictator killing his own people every day.
Posted by: J. Goodrich | June 5, 2007 8:53 PM
Excellent live-blogging. Thanks for making me laugh when I'd otherwise weep. After all, at the end of the day, if one of the Dems beats these disgraceful Americans, it will only be by a few percentage points.
And we could still lose. We could lose to this group of 10, not one of whom thinks Don't Ask, Don't Tell should be abolished, and most of whom, esp the front-runners, would go to Iraq all over again.
Posted by: cms | June 5, 2007 8:55 PM
OH MY GOD, and I say that with all due respect. I can not for the life of me understand how the GOP can be so STUPID. These are the best the GOP has to offer? If I was a Right Wing COnservative with the philosophy of less government and more say in government, I would vote Ron Paul. He is the only candidate the GOP has put forth that ACTUALLY has a CLUE. Come on Ron, come over the left with us where you belong!
Posted by: dan balfour | June 5, 2007 8:55 PM
Did McCain just call the War on Terror titanic (i.e. huge) or Titanic (big T) (i.e. boat that sank and horrible film starring Leonardo DiCaprio)?
Posted by: ari | June 5, 2007 9:02 PM
so shallow, unenlightened and chilling.
save for ron paul's comment, the whole debate is giving me a fright.
Posted by: jacqueline | June 5, 2007 9:05 PM
Rhetoric BS like I have never seen. Iraq and War on Terror have been used synonomously all night. We all know that isn't true. Saddam is no worse than the idiot in charge of Sudan, Iran, North Korea, apparently Russia, and the list goes on and yet we are not knocking down their doors with our SHOCK and Awe campaign... Oh I could go on for days... Seriously tho, is this the best the GOP can muster? Is the actor gonna come off the set of Law and Order and bail these morons out? Is the American People as a whole ready to pull their ignorant heads from their detached a$$es and see the GOP's for who they are? Unfortunately they won't. Right Wing Politicians are nothing more than War Mongers using the war on terrorism as a political scare tactic. You know if we would stop meddling in religious wars we know nothing about we wouldn't have these problems. Israel is certainly capable of handling themselves in this regard. We have seen that.
Oh dear I am fired up and I am rambling! Sorry
I think Mitt Romney could possible be the slick willy version of the anti-christ. His commercials scare me in that regard. What true god fearing religious person thinks we have to rule the world the way Mitt says we do?
Posted by: danbalfour | June 5, 2007 9:22 PM
Can't wait for violent street action to begin. First targets should include mainstream media outlets that ignore all things truth 9/11. How can CNN not randomly place candidates on stage?
Burn baby burn.
Go Ron!
Paul Kyler
RI
Posted by: Paul Kyler | June 6, 2007 12:26 AM
Piaget argued that a critical moment in the development of a functioning human mind is object permanence. Before object permanence, infants can only learn basic biological skills, like sucking, or touching. Afterwards, they can collect information about objects in their environments. To do this, however, they must learn to identify obvious, tangible patterns in their environments as objects.
See e.g. http://www.northern.ac.uk/NCMaterials/psychology/lifespan%20folder/Cognitivethinking.htm
Now, I actually have some grave doubts about pulling out of Iraq. I dont think it follows that if the troops should be removed merely because the invasion itself was a reprehensibly stupid act of mass murder. But wathcing the GOP debate tonight, I found myself terrified by the strength of Giuliani's performance on "National Security" issues.
Fact is, Giuliani said exactly what Bush has been saying, only with less drooling. And yet, it felt different. Newer. More resonant. Plausible to the middle. Maybe it was the background of acknowledged failure. Or maybe it was the fact that Giuliani has, for some reason, been getting a complete pass on the central political question of the day -- will you or won't you pull out the troops. Its astonishihing, but I dont know the answer, and I dont think either of the moderators have asked him. I dont mean I can't find it, but it doesn't seem to matter because he didn't get us into it. So even prosective questions about the war are deflected because its not an issue he owns.
The point can be pushed too far, but it does make sense, to a point, to understand cultural and political decision-making in psychological terms -- countries process information, aggregate conflicting impulses, and store trauma. Every group brain of any size is sluggish, stupid and spastic. But until now, there were threads of rationality, connections between national events and a political course. 9-11 was a trauma, and the result was a massive consolidation of federal and governmental power, and a widespread intolerance toward dissent and ethinicity. It was awful, but the reaction was goal directed. Katrina and Iraq produced massive electoral defeat for the GOP -- nobody in the democratic party had a particularly compelling plan to rebuild the coast, and the Iraq debate was consistently retrospective. But there is no surprise in seeing electoral punishment meted out for grotestque, traumatizing incompetence.
Tonight, I smelled a further regression. I smelled a Rudy who can stand up, say that we need to stay in Iraq because it is a place to fight terrorists, and generate the same reflexive nodding obedience from pundit and voter that lubed us up for the Iraq invasion.
This is a gut impression, but it is a gut impression of a gut impression, and I can't think of a better way to measure and sense a gut impression. My gut impression, though, is that something, something, something has disabled the American information processing mechanisms and rendered us incapable of that most basic cognitive act -- recognizing the same object after it has been momentarily removed from our sight.
Bush and Rudy are talking about the same war. I am fearfully unconfident that this most gruesome traumatizing object can be identified by the American brain as the same gruesome traumatizing object it was six months ago once a different, fresher-faced, person has taken over the job of talking about it.
Something has changed. It is not a more warlike attitude. It is not a lower threshold for fear. It is not an attitude or a proclivity. It is an intellectual collapse caused by a structural change in the way information is being processed. I don't know what it is or what is responsible, and could very very well be full of shit, but TV, I (like everyone else) am looking in your direction.
Posted by: RW | June 6, 2007 3:56 AM
Did Senator McCain actually compare the Iraq war to the Bosnia and Kosovo Wars?
Oh, good, so he's in favor of timetables for ending the Iraq occupation, just like he was for the Balkans, when he repeatedly challenged the President's right to put troops in harm's way. Bit of a flip-flop, but in the right direction.
My question to the candidates would be when the U.S. will attack Zimbabwe, a country which has a dictator killing his own people every day.
Just as soon as some neocon decides that, somehow, control of Zimbabwe gives the US leverage over Nigerian oilfields. So please stop giving them ideas.
Posted by: mds | June 6, 2007 9:51 AM