If only he hadn't agreed to matching funds...

I don't buy the "matching funds = death" crap. Never did. Used to be the standard.

"Bills will then get sent out, and if they're not paid, will be collected just like the government collects on student loan debts, or taxes, or anything else, using tools up to and including collection agencies and wage garnishment."

I still think this is an outrage. I make decisions about how much student loan I am willing to entail, I keep my penis to myself so no one garnishes my wages for child care. I am, philosophically, quite capable of being a card carrying member of the Hemlock Society. I pay my taxes which, believe it or not, I have a fair amount of control over as well. I decide whether or not I drive a car.

How dare this prick decide I am going to participate in his predatory insurance market?

You fuggers can subsidize your healthcare yourselves.

Well, if you don't want the government signing you up for their health insurance plan, then get your own insurance. Do you claim an inalienable right to drive without auto insurance, too?

Sure, El Cid, and $10,000 used to be a good annual salary. How is what was standard in the past relevant to what's needed for competition now?

Well, John Kerry sure didn't lose because he didn't spend enough money. Al Gore didn't nearly lose because he lacked money. Nor did the Democrats under DLC leadership lose Congress for most of a dozen years 1994 - 2006 because they didn't have enough money.

They lost because of political, not economic, factors.

"Do you claim an inalienable right to drive without auto insurance, too?"

I said I decide if I want to drive or not. If I am card carrying member of the Hemlock Society, why am *I* subsidizing *your* healthcare?

Maybe you think I'm full of shit; I'm not. I'm totally serious. How dare you authorize to yourself the ability to diminish the life *I* choose to live?

If you're a card carrying member of the Hemlock Society -- and simultaneously intent on carrying out Hemlock Society related program activities on yourself -- why would you be visiting a health care facility in the first place?

righteous libertarian watch...

(why are you subsidizing OTHER people's auto accident damages through auto insurance premiums?; or paying taxes, or not moving to Siberia?)

"If you're a card carrying member of the Hemlock Society -- and simultaneously intent on carrying out Hemlock Society related program activities on yourself -- why would you be visiting a health care facility in the first place?"

Exactly my point! I wouldn't. Therefore, I don't need insurance. But the bull shit policy makers John Edwards consults believe that I should be forced to subsidize yours. Hillary envisions a day when we'll need to participate in the predatory insurance market in order to hold a job.

Come again? If I'm too ill to hold the job, they'll just fire me, the same way they fire people who are too old or too sick now.

What's the problem? Pay for it yourself.

"why are you subsidizing OTHER people's auto accident damages through auto insurance premiums?"

Because I choose to drive. I've never had an accident, but I'll pay for the privilege.

Well, if you're intent on offing yourself really quickly, why should anyone care what your policy & tax preferences are?

It's kind of hard for politicians to play to the "Very Soon To Be Dead At My Own Hands" constituency.

I mean, I haven't seen any polling on this community, but I would guess that Hemlock-Americans aren't a big voting bloc in any region of the country.

Just a guess.

"I mean, I haven't seen any polling on this community, but I would guess that Hemlock-Americans aren't a big voting bloc in any region of the country."

No. But there's plenty of people who don't want to pay for your healthcare. On any terms.

Fine, then argue that. Also, I don't want to pay for an invasion and occupation of Iraq anymore, either, and a bunch of other stuff I could list.

Also, don't use stupid Philosophy 101 examples like "Well what if I was a damn space alien from a planet in which we all want to die" in order to argue against policies and then expect everyone to be impressed with your brilliance.

I'll give a damn about all these "I don't wanna pay for your" arguments when I can finally take off half my taxes for the military contractor, military weapons scammers, agricultural, and oil company subsidies.

So what happens if the cost of health care premium is so high that the person can't meet their rent if they have the premium extracted from their pay check?
Also, what mechanism exists to force insurers to issue insurance? Lots of people are currently turned down for health care coverage because they are too likely to need it.

It is completely plain to me that you are all a bunch of little spoiled middle class brats, who never in your lives had to do without, think it's sorrowful that people do (your hearts bleed), and the thing to do is start putting people who do go without into hock in order to pretend that "they're covered" to satisfy your liberal fantasies.

(Nevermind that it will give your benefits managers an excuse to dump you out too).

You're too naive and you're too dumb. I can't take it.

They should set up a federal pool so people can have another option available. If it's cheap enough, people will sign up. This is not so hard. If it's not cheap enough, then what the fuck is that you think you're doing?

Now get off my back.

Minor Correction: Obama's plan doesn't have NO mandate...it has a mandate for children, not adults.

Spoiled middle class brats. Hmmm. I guess Anonymous is supposed to the good ol' common sense workin' man who don't rightly want to be payin' for all them damn liberuls and'er health care.

I dunno. I do know that when I was a kid, we went to the public health clinics or we went to the military base, since Dad was in the military, which he joined on purpose just like I did so we could force unwilling taxpayers to subsidize our high-falutin' lifestyles.

And we also went to public schools and rode the bus, because we weren't freakish anti-government nutballs.

But you probably grew up in a 1 room shack and walked uphill through a snowstorm both ways to a private church school and caught your own rainwater to drink, so that justifies your consarn lectures about how we is all stupid if'n's we democratically elect a President who pushes for a social option for health care.

And no, YOU stay off my porch, ya dam outside agitater!

Hillary just said the same thing about mandates.

The car insurance analogy is moronic. The US has about the same percentage of uninsured drivers as people without healthcare. The "mandate" doesn't accomplish jacksh!t in either case. It's pure wonk wankery to fixate on a mandate. In a perfect world a mandate increases the size of your pool a bit and eliminates free loaders on the system -- that's a few percent savings -- not a deal breaker.

Obama's plan is vanilla ice cream. Edwards plan is a triple scoop of pistachio for Ezra. Whoopee. Try opening up an ice cream store that sells only pistachio and see how quickly you fail. You open selling mostly vanilla and when people find the store, like the store, and trust the store, you can stock everything including pistachio mandate.

Anonymous, so you choose to drive, huh? Well I myself don't drive, and I am fed up with people like you riding around for free using the roads, traffic lights, and whatever that my hard-earned money is buying you. Must be nice getting pampered, no? I am sick and tired of subsidizing your kind. Next thing is that drivers like you will be asking me to pay for your Starbucks lttes as well. These needy welfare drive types like anonymous should go get a real job and pay for your own road infrastructure.

After I'm fired or let go, the first thing I want is for the government to garnish my wages!

Ezra, I'm a progressive Democrat, and I don't like the sound of this a whole lot. And that was with a friendly voice selling it.

This should be a warning sign that your approach has serious political problems. If you can't promise that most Americans won't have to pay anything, than this becomes indistinguishable from a Republican approach of forcing people to pay for their own health care.

People want health care, but they sure as heck don't want to be forced to pay for it. And definitely, definitely not pay for it in advance.

ElCid is either a liar or a fool.

If the plans are good and affordable, you won't need a mandate to get 16% of uninsured Americans to buy in. If they suck or are too expensive, the mandate means you have to pay or be punished, and so there will be no reform.

LOOK--mandates are evil.

They are wet-dream marketing ploys for the very insurance companies who wrecked American healthcare. Klein, Krugman, et al fail to see how harmful this will be for all of us.